Is Return of the Jedi thematically awkward?

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by suarezguy, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 9, 2008
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    In very strongly having anti-revenge and pro-forgiveness moral themes?

    The movie I think objectively does push those themes very strongly, more arguable but I think the first two movies nearly didn't have them (so much so the third movie was initially to be called Revenge of the Jedi before Lucas decided that title and idea was unfitting). The only things in the whole first two movies a little like that are that in TESB Yoda briefly warns that anger and aggression are the Dark Side and then that being dramatized by Luke taking his lightsaber to the cave leading to the Vader image having Luke's face. So there is a warning against aggression but it still feels like Jedi went much further, to even a little dubious of fighting in defense.
  2. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Commodore Commodore

    May 18, 2017
    The clinic located by the Q Continuum
    It's a nice change from pro-revenge and anti-forgiveness - though even most of Trek is pro-forgiveness unless a baddie is like really bad (e.g. Kruge)...

    Given how recent (and popular) "The Wrath of Khan" was, and how behind the scenes both movies were in development and changing titles all the time when one side heard the other was going to use "Revenge" and what not, hehe...

    It's far more bothersome that it's the first film in the franchise to be a copycat of its predecessor, which clearly writes it up as it goes along since hot-for-bro Leia now claims she always knew he was her sibling on top of yet another death star with the same vent hole and everything else...

    But pretend ROTJ is nothing more than everyone dancing around on Jabba's ship, nix everything that follows as it's 90% repetition to begin with and all the Yoda scenes not only rehash TESB but also contradict it (since last time he wasn't supposed to go but then did and now he has to go back again even though he's still not ready), except for the Emperor scenes, then pad out that lump for another hour and a quarter and voila - it becomes a far better movie. Complete without Ewoks and their Kashyyyk-like home planet...
  3. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

    Jul 31, 2002
    If you cut out the Ewoks, then you cut out the main theme Lucas was trying to get across: that a great force of evil can be felled by a merger force of good. David vs. Goliath. The Viet Cong vs. the US military. That was the hook that got him through the early drafts of the original movie.

    As for the rest: -
    I tend to agree that if they had killed off Han and eschewed the Jabba's Palace adventure then it would have frred up a lot of screen time to focus on the main story and consequently, probably given Leia much more to do. As much as I'd be facinated to see that movie, it wasn't the movie Lucas wanted to make. He wanted a fun, uplifting final instalment. This was still aimed at kids after all and he felt the fairly heavy stuff with the Luke, Vader & the Emperor needed to be counterbalanced by returning to the franchise's swashbuckling roots.
    The Yoda scene was specifically created because 1) he wanted to get Guiness back in there one last time with at least something resembling acting to do 2) at the time, a portion of the audience legit thought Vader had been lying, so they needed a scene where it's all laid out before they even got into the second act.
    As for Luke being ready: that he came through the crucible in ESB was all that really mattered in regards to his training. In short: he got ready the hard way, not the way Yoda would have wanted for him.