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Is Religion Killing Good Sci-Fi Shows? [minimal politics]

jefferiestubes8

Commodore
Commodore
Okay I wanted to post this in the The Neutral Zone and decided against it. In keeping to minimal politics let's discuss if shows content and storylines are being hurt by religion.
Airlock Alpha did an article on it today.
Religion and politics are the hot buttons in any society and using them as storytelling devices is risky. When used cautiously, both can be excellent tools to provoke debate and galvanizing story points. But when used with abandon and heedless of the consequences, they can completely derail or eclipse even the best of sci-fi shows.

Will the sci-fi community ever trust Carlton Cuse, Damon Lindelof, Ronald D. Moore and David Eick to write a sci-fi show again? Has our faith in them been betrayed upon finding out that they were not actually writing sci-fi shows, but instead delivering pontification on their religious views?

Sure Star Trek TV series have religious aspects in stories but not in every episode.
Do you think there is too much religion in science fiction genre TV series?
 
Tiffany Voght said:
Will the sci-fi community ever trust Carlton Cuse, Damon Lindelof, Ronald D. Moore and David Eick to write a sci-fi show again?
Why even ask this question? There is way more talent out there other than the people from Lost and BSG. After all the BS that was in the last episode of Galactica I hope these writers simply learn their lesson.
 
I think the conclusion that Lost was pushing any kind of religious agenda is a real stretch.
Yeah, it ended in a representation of a church, but their concept of an afterlife was about as non-denominational as you can get. It was just a limbo-like place their own consciousness' had created so they could see each other again regardless of when they died before moving on to an afterlife or simple non-existence.
It was more spiritual in general rather than pushing any one religion on viewers. There was a not always coherent hodgepodge of Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Egyptian mythology, and Judeo-Christian-Islamic concepts.

As far as the original question, I don't think including religion as an element in scifi ruins it. I'm an atheist yet still derive a lot of enjoyment from shows that feature religion as an important element of the show (Miracles, DS9, BSG, etc.). It's all in how it is presented and whether it's used for preaching at the audience or for quality storytelling.
 
I think the conclusion that Lost was pushing any kind of religious agenda is a real stretch.
Yeah, it ended in a representation of a church, but their concept of an afterlife was about as non-denominational as you can get. It was just a limbo-like place their own consciousness' had created so they could see each other again regardless of when they died before moving on to an afterlife or simple non-existence.
It was more spiritual in general rather than pushing any one religion on viewers. There was a not always coherent hodgepodge of Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Egyptian mythology, and Judeo-Christian-Islamic concepts.

As far as the original question, I don't think including religion as an element in scifi ruins it. I'm an atheist yet still derive a lot of enjoyment from shows that feature religion as an important element of the show (Miracles, DS9, BSG, etc.). It's all in how it is presented and whether it's used for preaching at the audience or for quality storytelling.

Locutus has spoken. All hail Locutus! :techman:
 
Always be suspicious of any criticism that assumes the content of a story is meant as a polemic for the storyteller's views. That demonstrates a misunderstanding of the creative process. Yes, some storytellers use fiction as polemic, but often, writers will welcome the opportunity to explore characters with different beliefs from their own, or fantasy universes that don't reflect their real views, because they think there's an interesting story to tell there. For instance, X-Files creator Chris Carter doesn't really believe in UFOs, psychic powers, and the like; he just thought they were an entertaining subject for a work of fiction. And the beliefs of Firefly's lead character Mal Reynolds are almost diametrically opposite those of his creator Joss Whedon, who's said he probably wouldn't get along well with Mal if they met. But he found Mal an interesting character to write about nonetheless. Also, J. Michael Straczynski is an atheist, but a number of his Babylon 5 characters had sincere religious beliefs that were portrayed positively.

So it's naive to assume that if a storyteller includes spirituality in a work of fiction, it's meant as proselytization for that storyteller's own religious views. Often it's just because the storyteller thinks there's something creatively interesting there. In the case of Galactica, I think it was just part of Moore's desire to make the show into the anti-Star Trek; ST took a relentlessly secular view of the world, and so he wanted to do something that was different when he got his own show (and he and his colleagues on Deep Space Nine certainly pushed for more spirituality there as well). It's also worth keeping in mind that Moore's BSG was a remake of a concept that had been intended by its creator Glen A. Larson as a space-opera retelling of the Book of Mormon, and which was heavily steeped in the ancient-astronaut lore that was popular at the time. A degree of mysticism and spirituality was intrinsic to the premise of BSG, so it could be argued that Moore was just being true to that.

And Locutus is right -- spirituality is not the same thing as religion. Exploring questions about the nature of existence, the possibility of an afterlife, etc. is not the same as advocating a particular organized faith and its ideology.

Of course, it could be argued that neither BSG nor Lost was really science fiction in the final analysis. I think they both fell more into the genre called "magic realism," i.e. fantasy set in a familiar, grounded world rather than a medieval sword-and-sorcery type of setting, although BSG was a novel hybrid of magic realism and space opera. Still, there's plenty of overlap among the subgenres of speculative fiction, and it's not necessarily a good idea to draw sharp dividing lines between them, especially in mass-media entertainment, where you want to have broad rather than niche appeal.

Now, personally, I've felt for a long time that there's too much fantasy and mysticism in genre TV for my tastes. I would like to see more hard-science shows. But the predominance of fantasy was a fact of life long before Lost or Moore's BSG was even a glimmer in a producer's eye. Heck, go back to the '80s and you've got Quantum Leap all but saying that God was behind Sam's journeys. Plus you've got the outright fantasies of the '90s like Hercules/Xena and Buffy/Angel. So it can hardly be said to be a new trend.
 
Always be suspicious of any criticism that assumes the content of a story is meant as a polemic for the storyteller's views. That demonstrates a misunderstanding of the creative process. Yes, some storytellers use fiction as polemic, but often, writers will welcome the opportunity to explore characters with different beliefs from their own, or fantasy universes that don't reflect their real views, because they think there's an interesting story to tell there. For instance, X-Files creator Chris Carter doesn't really believe in UFOs, psychic powers, and the like; he just thought they were an entertaining subject for a work of fiction. And the beliefs of Firefly's lead character Mal Reynolds are almost diametrically opposite those of his creator Joss Whedon, who's said he probably wouldn't get along well with Mal if they met. But he found Mal an interesting character to write about nonetheless. Also, J. Michael Straczynski is an atheist, but a number of his Babylon 5 characters had sincere religious beliefs that were portrayed positively.

So it's naive to assume that if a storyteller includes spirituality in a work of fiction, it's meant as proselytization for that storyteller's own religious views. Often it's just because the storyteller thinks there's something creatively interesting there. In the case of Galactica, I think it was just part of Moore's desire to make the show into the anti-Star Trek; ST took a relentlessly secular view of the world, and so he wanted to do something that was different when he got his own show (and he and his colleagues on Deep Space Nine certainly pushed for more spirituality there as well). It's also worth keeping in mind that Moore's BSG was a remake of a concept that had been intended by its creator Glen A. Larson as a space-opera retelling of the Book of Mormon, and which was heavily steeped in the ancient-astronaut lore that was popular at the time. A degree of mysticism and spirituality was intrinsic to the premise of BSG, so it could be argued that Moore was just being true to that.

And Locutus is right -- spirituality is not the same thing as religion. Exploring questions about the nature of existence, the possibility of an afterlife, etc. is not the same as advocating a particular organized faith and its ideology.

Of course, it could be argued that neither BSG nor Lost was really science fiction in the final analysis. I think they both fell more into the genre called "magic realism," i.e. fantasy set in a familiar, grounded world rather than a medieval sword-and-sorcery type of setting, although BSG was a novel hybrid of magic realism and space opera. Still, there's plenty of overlap among the subgenres of speculative fiction, and it's not necessarily a good idea to draw sharp dividing lines between them, especially in mass-media entertainment, where you want to have broad rather than niche appeal.

Now, personally, I've felt for a long time that there's too much fantasy and mysticism in genre TV for my tastes. I would like to see more hard-science shows. But the predominance of fantasy was a fact of life long before Lost or Moore's BSG was even a glimmer in a producer's eye. Heck, go back to the '80s and you've got Quantum Leap all but saying that God was behind Sam's journeys. Plus you've got the outright fantasies of the '90s like Hercules/Xena and Buffy/Angel. So it can hardly be said to be a new trend.

Well said. :techman: I have frequently used prophecy, religion, pseudoscience, paranormal phenomena, fantasy creatures, etc. in things I've written. Do I believe any of that stuff is true or want to convince people it is? Of course not.

We seem to get way too cynical about these things once you include religion, as if we would only dare to include religion in a work of fiction if we're trying to convert people. Can't we just use it because it's part of who we are as human beings and it adds more layers and complexity to the story?
 
Always be suspicious of any criticism that assumes the content of a story is meant as a polemic for the storyteller's views. That demonstrates a misunderstanding of the creative process. Yes, some storytellers use fiction as polemic, but often, writers will welcome the opportunity to explore characters with different beliefs from their own, or fantasy universes that don't reflect their real views, because they think there's an interesting story to tell there. For instance, X-Files creator Chris Carter doesn't really believe in UFOs, psychic powers, and the like; he just thought they were an entertaining subject for a work of fiction. And the beliefs of Firefly's lead character Mal Reynolds are almost diametrically opposite those of his creator Joss Whedon, who's said he probably wouldn't get along well with Mal if they met. But he found Mal an interesting character to write about nonetheless. Also, J. Michael Straczynski is an atheist, but a number of his Babylon 5 characters had sincere religious beliefs that were portrayed positively.

So it's naive to assume that if a storyteller includes spirituality in a work of fiction, it's meant as proselytization for that storyteller's own religious views. Often it's just because the storyteller thinks there's something creatively interesting there. In the case of Galactica, I think it was just part of Moore's desire to make the show into the anti-Star Trek; ST took a relentlessly secular view of the world, and so he wanted to do something that was different when he got his own show (and he and his colleagues on Deep Space Nine certainly pushed for more spirituality there as well). It's also worth keeping in mind that Moore's BSG was a remake of a concept that had been intended by its creator Glen A. Larson as a space-opera retelling of the Book of Mormon, and which was heavily steeped in the ancient-astronaut lore that was popular at the time. A degree of mysticism and spirituality was intrinsic to the premise of BSG, so it could be argued that Moore was just being true to that.

And Locutus is right -- spirituality is not the same thing as religion. Exploring questions about the nature of existence, the possibility of an afterlife, etc. is not the same as advocating a particular organized faith and its ideology.

Of course, it could be argued that neither BSG nor Lost was really science fiction in the final analysis. I think they both fell more into the genre called "magic realism," i.e. fantasy set in a familiar, grounded world rather than a medieval sword-and-sorcery type of setting, although BSG was a novel hybrid of magic realism and space opera. Still, there's plenty of overlap among the subgenres of speculative fiction, and it's not necessarily a good idea to draw sharp dividing lines between them, especially in mass-media entertainment, where you want to have broad rather than niche appeal.

Now, personally, I've felt for a long time that there's too much fantasy and mysticism in genre TV for my tastes. I would like to see more hard-science shows. But the predominance of fantasy was a fact of life long before Lost or Moore's BSG was even a glimmer in a producer's eye. Heck, go back to the '80s and you've got Quantum Leap all but saying that God was behind Sam's journeys. Plus you've got the outright fantasies of the '90s like Hercules/Xena and Buffy/Angel. So it can hardly be said to be a new trend.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but did you imply that anyone who does write what he believes in is polemic?
 
I'm a militant agnostic and as anti-organized religion as it's possible to be, and I had no problems with the finales of nuBSG or Lost... and I've long made fun of Trek for its neo-Unitarianism and virtual ignoring of human religion's *ahem* evolution in the future. It's one of the things that Babylon 5 is light-years better on.

I may think religion is silly, but it's been a part of human society for a long long time and shows no sign of letting up... so sf needs to address it as well.
 
and I've long made fun of Trek for its neo-Unitarianism and virtual ignoring of human religion's *ahem* evolution in the future. It's one of the things that Babylon 5 is light-years better on.

I may think religion is silly, but it's been a part of human society for a long long time and shows no sign of letting up... so sf needs to address it as well.

I'd agree. I don't consider myself a "religious" person either, though I do believe I - like everyone else - has a spiritual facet to my existence and Bab5 (as well as DS9, Lost, and others) do well by not overlooking that aspect of who we are. Not only is it who we are, but it's who we've always been throughout all of recorded history and I can't imagine mankind without that aspect.

That's where I thought Lost did particularly well is that they never really presented a single "religion" as an answer of any kind... (or like Bab5 did with lots of religions).....in the end, it was simply that spiritual facet of themselves that transcended the end of their physical existence that was shown to move on beyond this life.

So, no, "Religion" is not killing good sci-fi. Bad writers might. People saying or doing things in the name of religion might. Cultural perception of religion might, but religion, like any other ideology is neutral and it what people do with it that determines it's impact on Sci-Fi.
 
I've read a lot of good SF with religious elements. From Behold the Man to Dune. As for BSG, wasnt the orginal created as a analog of the Mormons' journey?
 
Politics and especially religion can be volatile to a story regardless of the genre. It sometimes gets obvious in a show that a writer or creator has an axe to grind with a particular politician/party or religion or religious aspect. That's when it annoys me.

BSG and Lost both touched on this with BSG being more blatant and at times blunt with the political and religious references. It doesn't always make for a good or bad story but sometimes it does overtake the series and cloud the intent behind it.
 
Spirituality in SCIFI lets us explore new realms about ourselves, I see nothing wrong with religion or politics in SCIFI, it helps connect it with our own real-world.
 
I'm just getting terribly tired of storylines about "chosen ones" and prophecies and shit.

Seconded. Particularly when the chosen one learns decades of training (riding dragons, sword fighting, magic, insert lame ability) in the course of a few days or less and then saves the world.
 
Like I said, that doesn't have much to do with religion. I think it might be more accurate to say that "chosen ones", "prophecies", and mystical b.s. are killing good sci-fi movies/shows.
 
"Chosen One" stories, if done right, are good. Done bad, and its bad.

So really, it doesn't matter the content of the SCIFI flick, what matters is how good is the story done.
 
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