Is M-5 sentient? (The Ultimate Computer)

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I got to thinking of this during the "No law against genocide" thread. Is the M-5 computer considered to be a sentient being? It was programmed with Dr. Daystrom's memories and personality, and was capable of making decisions and acting on them. So does M-5 qualify as fully sentient, according to generally accepted definitions of the term?

And if so, does this mean that M-5 can be prosecuted for war crimes as it clearly committed in the episode? Or since Daystrom was obviously mentally unstable, and he programmed M-5, does this mean M-5 is also "insane" and would not be found guilty?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I got to thinking of this during the "No law against genocide" threat. Is the M-5 computer considered to be a sentient being? It was programmed with Dr. Daystrom's memories and personality, and was capable of making decisions and acting on them. So does M-5 qualify as fully sentient, according to generally accepted definitions of the term?

And if so, does this mean that M-5 can be prosecuted for war crimes as it clearly committed in the episode? Or since Daystrom was obviously mentally unstable, and he programmed M-5, does this mean M-5 is also "insane" and would not be found guilty?

I'll have to rewatch the episode but I don't recall the M-5 expressing a sense of self-awareness per se, just a self-defense protocol. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for whether the M-5 could be held accountable for its crimes -- not unless it meets the self-awareness/sentience test, which I don't think it did. Daystrom definitely got mental health treatment afterwards. My understanding is that "prison" isn't really a thing in the Trek future. The most we get, at least from a Federation perspective, is the asylum on Elba II ("LORD Garth!!!") Criminals in Star Trek are rehabilitated and treated, not imprisoned.

 

[telerites]

If so, wouldn't Dr. Roger Korby and Landru be in the same category?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Landru was just parroting a set of pre-recorded responses. So I don't think it qualifies as sentient.

As for Korby and his ilk? Maybe. They are androids, but Data shows us that androids can be sentient.

Oh, and the Federation definitely has prisons. The New Zealand penal colony, for example.

 

[BillJ]

No. M-5 was a calculator programmed to act a little too much like Daystrom.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

As for Korby and his ilk? Maybe. They are androids, but Data shows us that androids can be sentient.

I think Korby and his androids were more automatons, not fully sentient androids like Data. Don't they say Data is the first known sentient artificial lifeform?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, I don't remember Data being described that way...

 

[UssGlenn]

I think Korby and his androids were more automatons,

Korby certainly thought he was sentient. As far as he was concerned his consciousness was transferred to the android body.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Korby certainly thought he was sentient. As far as he was concerned his consciousness was transferred to the android body.

Yeah, I guess you're right. He wasn't on the processing level of Data, but it did seem to be a 1-to-1 transfer of his consciousness. That's different than a unique, created-from-nothing consciousness like Data though.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

I'll have to rewatch the episode but I don't recall the M-5 expressing a sense of self-awareness per se, just a self-defense protocol. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for whether the M-5 could be held accountable for its crimes -- not unless it meets the self-awareness/sentience test, which I don't think it did. Daystrom definitely got mental health treatment afterwards. My understanding is that "prison" isn't really a thing in the Trek future. The most we get, at least from a Federation perspective, is the asylum on Elba II ("LORD Garth!!!") Criminals in Star Trek are rehabilitated and treated, not imprisoned.

They sure have a lot of brigs (both on ships and in Starfleet headquarters) for a society without any prisons.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

They sure have a lot of brigs (both on ships and in Starfleet headquarters) for a society without any prisons.

Yeah, but brigs are temporary holding facilities, not a long-term incarceration system.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

M-5's problems seem a lot like what went wrong with HAL back in 2001. Contemporary audiences were supposed to think that HAL was sentient. But do we? Given what we now know about artificial intelligence, it seems likely M-5 and HAL were just elaborate simulations of awareness.

 

[Doug Otte]

I'll have to rewatch the episode but I don't recall the M-5 expressing a sense of self-awareness per se, just a self-defense protocol. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree. That's the way I recall it.

Oh, and the Federation definitely has prisons. The New Zealand penal colony, for example.

In which episode was this mentioned?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm pretty sure that the New Zealand penal colony was where Tom Paris was being held in the pilot episode of Voyager. I don't believe there was ever an Earth penal colony mentioned in TOS. But considering that we saw 23rd Century penal colonies in "Dagger of the Mind" and "Whom Gods Destroy," I don't think it's a big leap to assume that Earth had a few facilities along those lines, as well.

On M-5 being sentient, I'd normally say "No," but the fact that it attempted suicide gives me pause.

 

[UnknownSample]

I'm a bit baffled at what some people here think "conscious" or "sentient" mean. OF COURSE Corby was sentient! Who was having those conversations? Who had those plans and ambitions? Who remembered Christine fondly? Actually, if you say "hello" or "look at that flower" and it isn't a recording, chances are you're sentient. All it requires is that there's somebody home. A being who has a point of view of whatever kind.
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What complicates all this is that we already have machines that interact with humans apparently without any awareness at all, those creepy automatic yet interactive computers which call you.
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Corby was a continuation of Corby's living mind. He lost important qualities, but Corby the person continued. If someone can walk around, get into heated arguments, care, etc, and not be "conscious". hell, maybe I'm not.
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M5... borderline. It's as if the human engrams wake the computer brain out of its unawareness and egolessness, just a little. It functions pretty automatically, except when Daddy has a personal chat with him/it. Even then, it's as if it was programmed to simulate being a being, rather than being one... and Daystrom himself doesn't fully get that that's all it is. ??

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm pretty sure that the New Zealand penal colony was where Tom Paris was being held in the pilot episode of Voyager.

Yep.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, TOS tells us that a "penal colony" is not a prison. It's a hospital for curing criminals out of the illness called crime. Sure, it has locked doors and even moats, but that's just for the good of the patients...

There are penal colonies and brigs in both of the primary eras of UFP Starfleet adventures. What TOS lacks is prisons - and TNG does have those. Or at least Kasidy Yates was convinced that she would go to "prison" for her treasonous smuggling, to sit through a "prison sentence", and Richard Bashir goes to "prison" for his genetic tomfoolery as well.

Curiously, Bashir says that his prison is going to be a "minimum security penal colony in New Zealand". Then again, he's an idiot (and apparently in more than one sense the reason Julian got genetic tweaking) and might be confusing certain terms and meanings. But probably not - he gets a sentence obviously intended to punish, as its length is considered "harsh" by his brilliant son.

Further intrigue can be derived from Richard Bashir's case in that it's clearly Starfleet that handles his criminal case, down to and including Bashir having to report to an Admiral's office in order to begin his sentence. We never get any indication of a civilian law enforcement authority in the Federation, to be sure, but Starfleet handling civilian crime is rarely as blatant as here.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Oops, there was a subject matter to this thread, too...

I got to thinking of this during the "No law against genocide" threat. Is the M-5 computer considered to be a sentient being? It was programmed with Dr. Daystrom's memories and personality, and was capable of making decisions and acting on them. So does M-5 qualify as fully sentient, according to generally accepted definitions of the term?

We'd probably do well to find one of those "generally accepted definitions". The problem is, there apparently are none.

M-5 could just be a well-trained parrot. So could Kirk, Daystrom, you and me. OTOH, Kirk's tricorder could be sentient, and simply unwilling to brag on it much. Poor command of the hero character's native language shouldn't be taken as indication of lack of things like intelligence, self-awareness, a sentimental nature, or a deep passion for carrot pie and opera. Conversely, excellent command of Shakespeare should not stand for proof of the above.

And if so, does this mean that M-5 can be prosecuted for war crimes as it clearly committed in the episode? Or since Daystrom was obviously mentally unstable, and he programmed M-5, does this mean M-5 is also "insane" and would not be found guilty?

Insane people are guilty. Or, more accurately, guilty people are insane.

We don't know whether sentience would affect guilt in the TOS legal system. To date, few human systems have bothered to mention the concept, preferring to define legal competence and human rights by far more exacting criteria - often excluding some 90% of mankind for convenience! The Federation might not wish to be accused of declaring people property, and could readily declare property people just to be on the safe side.

In TNG, we know that sentience remains an issue the law actively tries to ignore. Data can enjoy life and career without any explicit proof of his sentience, but such enjoying does not suffice for implicit proof of sentience when the push comes to a legal shove. OTOH, sentience just plain doesn't matter: Data gets a specific, narrow court ruling on a right to decide on a specific issue, and nobody cares whether he becomes sentient in the process; was always sentient; or remains nonsentient.

The possible sentience of M-5 should hardly matter, then. If need be, the courts could go for a Catch-22: if M-5 is sentient, then he will be executed for wanton murder, and if it is not, it can be shut down for good without complications.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

I did not see M-5 as sentient, just programmed badly by Daystrom. Corby might be borderline, as he was processed by an alien machine. Sure he has memories if his past self, but where do his new initiatives cone from?

 

[johnnybear]

Yeah, I guess you're right. He wasn't on the processing level of Data, but it did seem to be a 1-to-1 transfer of his consciousness. That's different than a unique, created-from-nothing consciousness like Data though.

I would have said that Korby was well above Data's skills! His mind was human as his consciousness was transferred into an android body which was physically superior to Data's! Plus Data, Lore and B4 were all constructed by a human being and not their long dead Old Ones as revealed by Ruk!
JB