Is Countdown the TATV of Harold?

[Christopher]

I'd be willing to bet there won't be any further 24th century post-Countdown tales for another four or five years. It'll take that long for everybody to figure out whether Countdown "counts" or not for the licensed Trek fiction.

Umm, Countdown is licensed Trek fiction. What you're talking about is whether Pocket's fiction line will mesh with it or not. And since Pocket's main continuity is still in 2381, it's likely to be a number of years before that even becomes an issue.

As for further licensed Trek fiction from IDW Comics, it stands to reason that Countdown would be considered to "count" as far as they're concerned, so there's nothing precluding them from doing their own 24th-century followup regardless of what direction Pocket takes.

There's also the fact that the Star Trek Online RPG has already incorporated the events of Countdown into its own backstory. So it "counts" as far as that licensed fiction (if the term is applicable to a game) is concerned as well.

After a few more films in the Abramsverse, I expect Harold will be relegated to an Earth-2-like status (meaning neglected second fiddle). So adventures that progress farther into the 24th century will fall under the alternative universe category as far as Paramount Licensing is concerned. Licensing may allow them, but not bother to ensure they're consistent with each other.

CBS's licensing department (which is still responsible for all tie-ins even though Paramount produced the film) has never bothered to ensure that tie-ins were consistent with each other, only with onscreen Trek. Continuity among tie-ins (when not forbidden by Richard Arnold) has always been at the discretion of the editors and authors.

^Right. There exists a complete sequence of Nero's crew imprisoned on Rura Penthe, but Abrams cut it from the film since it threw off the pacing and was an unnecessary sidebar.

Thus explaining the 47 dead Klingon ships, I'm guessing. That was his escape and revenge?

Escape, yes. I don't know about revenge, not having seen the deleted sequence.

 

[JD]

There's a prequel, Spock: Reflections, and a sequel (but still a movie prequel, if that makes sense) forthcoming. I haven't heard about a 24th-century sequel, though.

That sounds like that still makes Countdown both the chronlogical end of the original continuity, as well as the jumping-off point for the next (movie) continuity.

I'd be willing to bet there won't be any further 24th century post-Countdown tales for another four or five years. It'll take that long for everybody to figure out whether Countdown "counts" or not for the licensed Trek fiction. Until then, Pocket's writers may be less than enthusiastic about validating Countdown. But nobody will be contradicting it either, since it's got the weight of the movie's writers behind it.

After a few more films in the Abramsverse, I expect Harold will be relegated to an Earth-2-like status (meaning neglected second fiddle). So adventures that progress farther into the 24th century will fall under the alternative universe category as far as Paramount Licensing is concerned. Licensing may allow them, but not bother to ensure they're consistent with each other.

Until that time, I expect a lot of TATV-ish grumbling about how the Powers That Be fumbled away the chance to finish on a high note.

Personally, I doubt this will happen. Sure they probably will start to realese stuff based on the movie, but I really don't think that it will have that much of an impact on the current Prime universe (designation comes from Leonard Nemoy's Spock being Spock Prime on the movie's official website). Just look at the Star Wars universe, which has been doing stuff taking place in both the prequel and OT time periods, and AFAIK the OT stuff has actually sold better than the prequel stuff. So this shows that even when new stuff comes out the old stuff can continue to be just as popular as it was before.

 

[TJ Sinclair]

Who is Harold?

One of our lovable authors referred to the original continuity as Harold as a joke. The term picked up a few fans, so when he asked them to stop, it became the new TrekBBS Meme.

It's Internet logic, just ask Harold-Spock.

I'm starting to call the two universes Will and Tom.

That's how I've been explaining the difference to people who are either a) afraid that the film "erases" previous canon, or b) afraid that the new universe doesn't count at all because it's not "real."

 

[JTK2099]

I don't care for the Pocket Books or their version of the Trek Universe so I would be happy to see IDW do additional 24th century stories that bore no relation to anything published by Pocket.

 

[jeffers1970]

There's a prequel, Spock: Reflections, and a sequel (but still a movie prequel, if that makes sense) forthcoming. I haven't heard about a 24th-century sequel, though.

That sounds like that still makes Countdown both the chronlogical end of the original continuity, as well as the jumping-off point for the next (movie) continuity.

I'd be willing to bet there won't be any further 24th century post-Countdown tales for another four or five years. It'll take that long for everybody to figure out whether Countdown "counts" or not for the licensed Trek fiction. Until then, Pocket's writers may be less than enthusiastic about validating Countdown. But nobody will be contradicting it either, since it's got the weight of the movie's writers behind it.

After a few more films in the Abramsverse, I expect Harold will be relegated to an Earth-2-like status (meaning neglected second fiddle). So adventures that progress farther into the 24th century will fall under the alternative universe category as far as Paramount Licensing is concerned. Licensing may allow them, but not bother to ensure they're consistent with each other.

Until that time, I expect a lot of TATV-ish grumbling about how the Powers That Be fumbled away the chance to finish on a high note.

I'm not sure about that. Consider how much TOS merchandise is being sold all over the place. And keep in mind, the new MMORPG Star Trek Online is all set in the early 25th Century...post destruction of Romulus/Spock traveling through the 'black hole'. In fact, IDW worked closely with the game designers to use their new uniforms and ship interface styles to tie together.

I think Paramount's finally going to get smart about their Trek...by keeping the original series and the spin-offs alive and well, they don't alienate their core fan base...the ones who spend TONS of money on books, collectibles, action figures, etc. While at the same time, you can make quick bucks every time a new movie is released by throwing out a bunch of merchandise for the fly-by-night fan who'll stop caring about Trek until the NEXT movie comes out.

 

[seigezunt]

So if the original timeline is Harold, would the Abramsverse be...

...Weird Harold?


HEYHEYHEY!

 

[Cap'n Crunch]

So if the original timeline is Harold, would the Abramsverse be...

...Weird Harold?


HEYHEYHEY!

No, it's Kumar! But perhaps those should be switched considering who plays Sulu in the new movie.

 

[GHS]

Umm, Countdown is licensed Trek fiction. What you're talking about is whether Pocket's fiction line will mesh with it or not. And since Pocket's main continuity is still in 2381, it's likely to be a number of years before that even becomes an issue.

As for further licensed Trek fiction from IDW Comics, it stands to reason that Countdown would be considered to "count" as far as they're concerned, so there's nothing precluding them from doing their own 24th-century followup regardless of what direction Pocket takes.

There's also the fact that the Star Trek Online RPG has already incorporated the events of Countdown into its own backstory. So it "counts" as far as that licensed fiction (if the term is applicable to a game) is concerned as well.

I meant to say licensed Trek works besides Countdown. I agree that IDW won't be contradicting it, but there's nothing preventing the games, books, or Manga from doing their own version. I don't foresee the any of these doing so anytime soon, (unless Pocket gets permission to do an expanded novelization of the comic).

Past that spot in the Harold timeline, although it conceivably makes sense from a marketing perspective, it doesn't make sense dramatcially to do stories past the "big finish". Deeply flawed or not, Countdown was the explosive finale (not just to TNG, but the whole continuity). If you don't have the leeway to change characters however you please (like you would if the screenwriters were assisting your plot), it would just be embarrassing to offer up the standard "what's making the colonists sick" storyline as a follow-up to a comic that rewrote familiar Trek with every other page. That's not meant as a knock against the quality of Pocket's writers; it's just pointing out that the Countdown writers had far more leeway that was given to anyone else working on licensed Trek (even David Mack had on Destiny), and it would be ridiculous to try to compete with Countdown or claim a connection to it unless you had the same freedom. And even then, Spock's gone, Nero already rewrote history - game over, in my opinion.

 

[Christopher]

Nero didn't rewrite history. He split off a new history that coexists alongside the original. (In the new movie tie-in issue of Star Trek Magazine, Simon Pegg likens it to the Mirror Universe.)

 

[Saul]

^Right. There exists a complete sequence of Nero's crew imprisoned on Rura Penthe, but Abrams cut it from the film since it threw off the pacing and was an unnecessary sidebar. Expect to see it on the DVD's deleted scenes.

Does anyone know how Nero and his crew were caught? Was it because of the

Spoiler: Movie spoiler

Kelvin crashing into the Narada? And later it was attacked by Klingons?

 

[Christopher]

^The Narada/Kelvin encounter was near the Klingon border, and the Narada was crippled in the incident. Presumably the Klingons came to investigate.

 

[Stevil2001]

Nero didn't rewrite history. He split off a new history that coexists alongside the original. (In the new movie tie-in issue of Star Trek Magazine, Simon Pegg likens it to the Mirror Universe.)

Admittedly, there's not really any evidence of that in-story.

 

[Thrawn]

Nero didn't rewrite history. He split off a new history that coexists alongside the original. (In the new movie tie-in issue of Star Trek Magazine, Simon Pegg likens it to the Mirror Universe.)

Admittedly, there's not really any evidence of that in-story.

In the movie, they explain it to you pretty well, but even if you discount that, Countdown has everyone continuing to exist after Nero and Spock go through.

Either way, it's clearly the creators' intent to have the original continuity still existing, and stories will keep being published in it, so it doesn't matter what evidence you think there is in-story.

 

[Christopher]

^Actually, I think Steve has a point. In the movie, they talk about Nero's actions creating an alternate reality and their destiny being changed, but they never actually state that the original history continues to exist. So basically it's contingent on how the listener interprets the phrase "alternate reality." That's generally accepted to mean a parallel, coexisting reality/timeline, but not everyone sees it that way. For instance, in the Orci Q&A thread on TrekMovie, there was a comment from one poster who apparently had the notion that "alternate" meant "altered" and therefore referred to a changed/overwritten history. And actually they had a point; by dictionary definition, "alternate" either means occurring in succession or in every other instance, or in place of something else as a substitution. Its frequent use in fiction to be synonymous with "parallel reality" is actually a misnomer. But it's a common enough usage that most people understand they're interchangeable. (I think the term was originally "alternative reality," but that got shortened to "alternate" based on the mistaken assumption that they're synonymous.)

 

[Stevil2001]

^ Exactly. Obviously the supplemental material casts a different light on it (the novelization has the 1701 crew ruminating about their "original" versions still running around somewhere as well), but purely going by the movie, it's pretty easy to think that everything's been overwritten.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Yeah, given how the producers were at such pains to suggest in interviews that the original timeline still existed, I was surprised that the movie didn't hammer the point home. Not that I think that's a problem- most members of the film audience aren't going to care, after all.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So if the original timeline is Harold, would the Abramsverse be...

...Weird Harold?


HEYHEYHEY!

No, it's Kumar! But perhaps those should be switched considering who plays Sulu in the new movie.

If the original timeline is Harold, the new one should be Red.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, given how the producers were at such pains to suggest in interviews that the original timeline still existed, I was surprised that the movie didn't hammer the point home. Not that I think that's a problem- most members of the film audience aren't going to care, after all.

Indeed. That wasn't something that was necessary to the story of the film per se, so it would've been self-indulgently fannish to dwell on it onscreen.

 

[Dayton Ward]

In true JJA style, all the answers you seek are hidden within the lens flares.

 

[Christopher]

In true JJA style, all the answers you seek are hidden within the lens flares.

You mean it's in heliograph code?