I think Foreman is better. Ok stick with me here for a second, I know Ali beat George's butt in the Rumble in the Jungle. But I think why people buy into the image of Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr is because of his style, his personality, and his life story not his boxing record. His loud spoken opinions, his part as social activist, his journey to find Islam and his story for being thrown in jail for not going to Vietnam and other events in his life. yes he had great style, fanatatsic footwork and the best speed a heavy weight has ever seen. However the fact people Ken Norton, and bully boy Joe Frazier were able to dominate him and the fact Ali lacked a powerful punch means he would have gone through serious trouble if Ali had to face an average bad boy like Mike Tyson. Foreman didn't have style, his boxing style was almost ugly but he was extremely powerful and workman like. Foreman showed how to beat smokin Joe Frazier knock him out and send his butt backwards through the ropes and out of the ring. Mohammed Ali wanted to avoid fighting a great Cuban champ like Teófilo Stevenson but even if he had the desire at that time anyway it was all tided up as Cubans and Soviets were not given a chance to go international. Later in life Ali was taking some serious punishment while Foreman cameback to beat the best in America and after Eastern Europe had opened up to defeat the best in the world. Foreman might have looked glum in the ring, but he had more power and his story and his record stands and he's many times better than Ali.
Is ALI the most over rated fight of all time?
- Thread starter V4Victory
- Start date
No, I don't think that at all.
If Ali had fought Tyson in their primes, Ali would have made him look foolish. Sure Tyson might have landed a lucky blow, but Ali was 20 times the boxer Tyson ever dreamed of being. His speed and his smarts would have prevailed, there's no question in my mind. Ali by unanimous decision.
As for the rest...well, it just makes me nostalgic for the great days of heavyweight boxing. Foreman, Frazier, Norton. Even Holmes. Howard Cossell calling the fight on ABC's Wide World of Sports (back when you could watch championship boxing for free!)
Nowadays, the division is a mess. I mean, the Klitschko brothers? Hell, they make me miss Lennox Lewis. What are David Tua and Buster Douglas up to?
It's a sad time in heavyweight boxing.
If Ali had fought Tyson in their primes, Ali would have made him look foolish. Sure Tyson might have landed a lucky blow, but Ali was 20 times the boxer Tyson ever dreamed of being. His speed and his smarts would have prevailed, there's no question in my mind. Ali by unanimous decision.
As for the rest...well, it just makes me nostalgic for the great days of heavyweight boxing. Foreman, Frazier, Norton. Even Holmes. Howard Cossell calling the fight on ABC's Wide World of Sports (back when you could watch championship boxing for free!)
Nowadays, the division is a mess. I mean, the Klitschko brothers? Hell, they make me miss Lennox Lewis. What are David Tua and Buster Douglas up to?
It's a sad time in heavyweight boxing.
Ali did not have the strongest punch, but he did have tremendous stamina, conditioning and was more than wily. If he couldn't defeat a fighter through strength, he could usually outthink him and win through strategy. Norton and Frazier each beat him only once, and Ali came back to beat each of them in return, and beat Foreman iin what I think was their only match - "rope-a-dope". Better than Foreman? No, I can't see that at all. Maybe Foreman should have beaten Ali ... but the fact is he didn't. And Ali went on to still be successful after that bout. Foreman had success too, but it was more in wearing his opponent out, kinda Rock VI like.
Overrated? Maybe, depending upon how highly rated some folks have him. I don't know enough to say definitively if he was the greatest of all time. But it sure seems that he was up there and deserving of being in the conversation along with Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey,and the like.
Overrated? Maybe, depending upon how highly rated some folks have him. I don't know enough to say definitively if he was the greatest of all time. But it sure seems that he was up there and deserving of being in the conversation along with Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey,and the like.
Frazier beat Ali once and that was hardly a "dominating" performance. Had it not been for the knock-down, many think Ali might have won the fight via decision. And in two other fights Ali, not just soundly defeated Frazier, but softened him up for Foreman.
As I recall, Norton did have some success against Ali but then so did Leon Spinks. Both were simply minor blips on Ali's radar.
Ali did lack a powerful punch but as others have pointed out, he made up for this with a multitude of other physical attributes that most other fighters only dream of. But Ali's other great boxing talent was that he possessed an iron jaw. He faced several heavy punchers, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Ernie Terrell, none were able to knock Ali out. Frazier and Forman all landed mutiple shots and could not knock Ali out.
Stevenson was a great heavyweight for years against amateurs. but his fundamentally sound but straight up and immoble style was tailor made for Ali's quick punching, mobile style. I think Ali would not have had much trouble with Stevenson.
Perhaps you are dazzled by that circus stunt Forman pulled when he fought like 5 fighters or whatever it was, in one night. What a joke he became. Anyway, Forman is to be commended for his success so late in his career, but in truth, this says more about the sorry state of heavy weight boxing at the time than it says about Forman's abilities as a fighter. I would rank Forman behind Frazier, all time.
A laymans view.
While Ali is probably over rated, I still believe in his prime he is the greatest heavyweight of all time.
I only have pretty basic knowlage of boxing, I enjoy big title fights, but would not class myself as a huge fan, and I have never boxed myself. However, I do know plenty of real boxing fanatics, and some guys who have been amateur boxers, and I would reckon 95% regard Ali as the best ever.
The fact that he had heavyweight power, yet had the speed & movement of a man in the lower weight divisions are what most of my boxing obsessed mates point out is what made Ali differant class.
And the fact that Ali did lose to Frasier & Norton just proves how good the heavyweight division was in those days. IMHO.
I grew up watching boxing from the 80's, when we had 4 differant title belts, and fighters who seemed to make an art out of dodging other top fighters. Indeed when two big guns finally did square up at a Las Vegas casino, it was always billed as the biggest fight in history.
Aye, you lot in the 60's & 70's never knew how good you had it!
BRG
While Ali is probably over rated, I still believe in his prime he is the greatest heavyweight of all time.
I only have pretty basic knowlage of boxing, I enjoy big title fights, but would not class myself as a huge fan, and I have never boxed myself. However, I do know plenty of real boxing fanatics, and some guys who have been amateur boxers, and I would reckon 95% regard Ali as the best ever.
The fact that he had heavyweight power, yet had the speed & movement of a man in the lower weight divisions are what most of my boxing obsessed mates point out is what made Ali differant class.
And the fact that Ali did lose to Frasier & Norton just proves how good the heavyweight division was in those days. IMHO.
I grew up watching boxing from the 80's, when we had 4 differant title belts, and fighters who seemed to make an art out of dodging other top fighters. Indeed when two big guns finally did square up at a Las Vegas casino, it was always billed as the biggest fight in history.
Aye, you lot in the 60's & 70's never knew how good you had it!
BRG
Re: A laymans view.
Well, not necessarily. You can be overrated and still be the greatest. It just means you're not as "overrated" as some others might feel you to be.
Talk about being at odds with oneself.
Well, not necessarily. You can be overrated and still be the greatest. It just means you're not as "overrated" as some others might feel you to be.
Re: A laymans view.
That he was considered "the greatest" is the highest compliment Ali (or any fighter) can receive with respect to their boxing career. So Ali can't be considered "the Greatest", AND overrated at the same time without there being a contradiction. He was either one or the other.
Generally true (I guess), but I don't see it applying in this case. The poster's stated opinion was that Ali was "probably overrated", then states that he thinks Ali was the "greatest heavyweight of all time".Talk about being at odds with oneself.
Well, not necessarily. You can be overrated and still be the greatest. It just means you're not as "overrated" as some others might feel you to be.
That he was considered "the greatest" is the highest compliment Ali (or any fighter) can receive with respect to their boxing career. So Ali can't be considered "the Greatest", AND overrated at the same time without there being a contradiction. He was either one or the other.
Re: A laymans view.
Indeed, this was what I was trying to say.
I would put footballer Pele, and racing driver Ayrton Senna in the same catagory as Ali.
All three were probably the greatest ever at their sports, however, they have since achieved such legendary status that they are regarded as almost superhuman by some.
Clearly they are overrated, despite beng the best.
BRG
Talk about being at odds with oneself.
Well, not necessarily. You can be overrated and still be the greatest. It just means you're not as "overrated" as some others might feel you to be.
Indeed, this was what I was trying to say.
I would put footballer Pele, and racing driver Ayrton Senna in the same catagory as Ali.
All three were probably the greatest ever at their sports, however, they have since achieved such legendary status that they are regarded as almost superhuman by some.
Clearly they are overrated, despite beng the best.
BRG
Re: A laymans view.
Well, I have to disagree. When you consider all the things he did, at the time he did them, I don't think Ali is overrated as boxer or a pop cultural icon.
So you were talking about Ali's non-boxing life when you said he was overrated? You didn't make that clear and the thread is about Ali's being overrated as a boxer, not about his out of the ring activity,Talk about being at odds with oneself.
Well, not necessarily. You can be overrated and still be the greatest. It just means you're not as "overrated" as some others might feel you to be.
Indeed, this was what I was trying to say.
I would put footballer Pele, and racing driver Ayrton Senna in the same catagory as Ali.
All three were probably the greatest ever at their sports, however, they have since achieved such legendary status that they are regarded as almost superhuman by some.
Clearly they are overrated, despite beng the best.
BRG
Well, I have to disagree. When you consider all the things he did, at the time he did them, I don't think Ali is overrated as boxer or a pop cultural icon.
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Lol, agreed.
Ali killed Foreman. I saw the fight via closed circuit tv. Everyone thought Foreman would win, but Ali chopped him down after letting him punch himself out. Foreman looked knocked out even as he fell.
Although I never saw him fight except on tape, the Brown Bomber, Joe Louis, would be the only fighter I'd put in Ali's class.
Even Ali would agree with this. Ray was always Ali's biggest stylistic influence.
Ali was highly over-rated, from the way people talk of him you would think he ko'd everyone he fought exactly in the round he predicted. Ali was a good fighter, but was troubled at times by cruiserweight journeymen. If tyson or lennox lewis would have fought Ali they would have done him up badly 9 times out of 10
Since this has become the boxing thread, I just have to say:
In the United States of America, it is completely legal to beat a man into a blubbering pulp of a submission, likely with a concussion and several other injuries. It is illegal to fight someone on a curb.
This country stands behind "athletic associations" and other regulatory bodies to justify the prior act.
How does this separate us from the Romans?
Just throwing that out there. Talk amongst yourselves.
In the United States of America, it is completely legal to beat a man into a blubbering pulp of a submission, likely with a concussion and several other injuries. It is illegal to fight someone on a curb.
This country stands behind "athletic associations" and other regulatory bodies to justify the prior act.
How does this separate us from the Romans?
Just throwing that out there. Talk amongst yourselves.
You'll be here all week, right?
If Ali knocked out George Foreman at the height of the latter's powers, Lewis and Tyson would have stood little if any chance against him. Ali whippped Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier and Foreman, any of whom arguably hit harder than Tyson. Shavers and Foreman definitely did.
Ali was the greatest in the greatest era—one that contained himself, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Young, Lyle, Shavers, Holmes and others.
Tyson was a big fish in a small pond. In addition, do you really think Buster Douglas could have beaten Ali?
I didn't think so.
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