Indiana Jones & Last Crusade: Elsa Question

[JediKnightButler]

One thing that I never fully understood from Indiana Jones was whether Elsa betrayed Donovan, leading to his death, or truly made a fatal error by choosing the wrong cup? The movie seems to leave this ambiguous, at least to me. Does anybody want to weigh in on this? I've never heard this discussed anywhere before. I'm not sure I have an opinion as it really could be looked at either way.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I think she betrayed Donovan because she wanted the grail for herself.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I have always felt that Elsa chose a cup for Donovan she knew couldn't possibly be the Grail, so that yes, she essentially betrayed him. I'm not sure if she wanted the Grail for herself, for Germany, or for Indy (who had proven himself worthy of it). Her motives are kind of ambiguous.

 

[JediKnightButler]

I think she betrayed Donovan because she wanted the grail for herself.

That's sort of my opinion as well, which also leads me to the sudden ”Grail Madness” that seems to infect both her and Indy right at the end. What was THAT scene all about????

 

[Anwar]

Look at Elsa's face when Donovan shoot's Indy's dad. She clearly didn't want things to go the way they did...my guess is that it wasn't just to get Donovan out of the way. It was revenge for what he did to Henry.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That's sort of my opinion as well, which also leads me to the sudden ”Grail Madness” that seems to infect both her and Indy right at the end. What was THAT scene all about????

"Grail madness," that's an interesting idea. Notice who doesn't suffer it -- Sallah and Henry Jones, Sr. For Sallah, the Grail holds no spiritual meaning, while it's vitally important to Henry, though he's also suffering from a gunshot wound until he's healed by the Grail. The desire to possess the Grail, the "Grail madness," suggests that Indy and Elsa were never worthy of the Grail or the task of guarding it like the Crusader knight. Indy's mantra is right up front in the film -- "It belongs in a museum." The man in the fez in Venice asks Indy why he seeks the Grail -- "Is it for God's glory? Or for yours?" Only Henry, who resisted its lure, was truly worthy of the Grail, perhaps because he never wanted it, he only wanted to find it. Possessing the Grail was less important than knowing it was real and that a lifetime of research mattered.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think she betrayed Donovan because she wanted the grail for herself.

Yeah, this.

Elsa claims that she believes in the Grail in Berlin, but the film lets stand Henry's assessment at the end that Elsa didn't really believe in the Grail but rather she thought she'd found a prize.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yup, I always read it that she betrayed Donovan and she wanted the Grail. Remember how excited she got when he successfully chose the right one? She really wanted it.

I also like the notion of "Grail madness," something I had thought about in parts but never quite put it all under that umbrella term until now.

 

[STEPhon IT]

One thing that I never fully understood from Indiana Jones was whether Elsa betrayed Donovan, leading to his death, or truly made a fatal error by choosing the wrong cup? The movie seems to leave this ambiguous, at least to me. Does anybody want to weigh in on this? I've never heard this discussed anywhere before. I'm not sure I have an opinion as it really could be looked at either way.

She didn't betray him; she desired it as much as Donovan did, but for her it was --as Indy said before in another film,-- "Fortune and Glory" for her. A prize which I thought would get her anything she wanted like asylum, getting contracts to Universities all over the world, seminars, articles from the top magazines on Earth, and more archeology assignments-- leaving Austria and the Nazi reign behind her.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm so tempted to make a Frozen joke right now.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I'm so tempted to make a Frozen joke right now.

It probably would have received a cool reception.

 

[Solariabsg25]

I think there was quite a bit of unspoken depth behind the Elsa character. On the surface she appeared to be a full-blown Nazi, but was visibly upset at the book-burning, and also seemed disturbed both at the death of Kazim (the leader of the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword), and as others mentioned the shooting of Henry Jones. Perhaps she had ambitions and simply was using the regime as a convenient stepping-stone to get what she wanted.

As to Donovan, yep I definitely feel like she betrayed him on purpose.

 

[Tosk]

IMO, she absolutely did Donovan dirty on purpose. Once he's kaput, Elsa tells Indy what the cup should really be, "It would not be made of gold."

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Notice who doesn't suffer it -- Sallah and Henry Jones, Sr. For Sallah, the Grail holds no spiritual meaning

….until he sees its healing power on Henry. Raiders established Sallah as at least understanding and respecting the Christian religious artifacts--the Ark in that case, with the following--

Sallah: "There is something that troubles me.."
Indiana: "What is it?"
Sallah: "The Ark. If it is there at Tanis, then it is something that man was not meant to disturb. Death has always surrounded it. It is not of this earth."

So if he's not a full believer in the religion (as in follower), he's certainly open-minded to the possibilities of what each represented, hence his reaction to the Grail's healing power.

The desire to possess the Grail, the "Grail madness," suggests that Indy and Elsa were never worthy of the Grail or the task of guarding it like the Crusader knight. Indy's mantra is right up front in the film -- "It belongs in a museum." The man in the fez in Venice asks Indy why he seeks the Grail -- "Is it for God's glory? Or for yours?"

I'm not sure that for Indiana, its a matter of worthiness; one of the running themes of the original IJ trilogy is that Indiana's skepticism always had to be smacked into the reality of the religions or artifacts he was dealing with; in Raiders, he was on the fence about the Ark until its power was revealed in front of him (notice how he warns Marion to close her eyes--which he would not do unless he believed to some degree), and in Temple of Doom's conclusion, of the sivalinga stone(s) he admits--

"I understand its power now."

Unlike Elsa, he actually had a faith to rely on in selecting the right grail and taking a drink from it; it was not based on a strict, clinical assessment of artifacts. After two films in, and debating with his father on the way to Berlin in TLC, Indiana had to finally reach into himself--his true beliefs, which made him worthy. Elsa was all about the potential of power (and not in the half-believer way of a Belloq) and glory of it all, so she--like Donovan--were not worthy of its benefits (or the job of protecting it), even it she knew the real Grail on sight.

 

[LJones41]

Look at Elsa's face when Donovan shoot's Indy's dad. She clearly didn't want things to go the way they did...my guess is that it wasn't just to get Donovan out of the way. It was revenge for what he did to Henry.

Look at Elsa's face when Donovan first reacts to drinking from the wrong cup. She had set him up.

Elsa was all about the potential of power (and not in the half-believer way of a Belloq) and glory of it all, so she--like Donovan--were not worthy of its benefits (or the job of protecting it), even it she knew the real Grail on sight.

I think for Elsa, it was all about academic glory.

 

[Tosk]

Unlike Elsa, he actually had a faith to rely on in selecting the right grail and taking a drink from it; it was not based on a strict, clinical assessment of artifacts.

He was also the only one to find the grail chamber due to a 'leap of faith'. Donovan and Elsa required no faith, they simply followed.

 

[Vger23]

I think it's clear that Elsa purposefully set Donovan up to die. She knew he'd take the Grail and/or deliver it to the Nazis. I think she genuinely liked Jones, and believed that she could actually convince him to keep it between the two of them. It was the only play she had.

She just underestimated Indy's discipline.

I don't think there was any "Grail fever" that made them obsessed with it. She was obsessed with it from the beginning. Indy was trying to save it because he had just spent the entire movie risking life-and-limb to locate it. It only took Henry saying "let it go" for him to realize that it wasn't meant to be.

On a related note: This is one of my favorite movies of all time.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

Yeah, she definitely is betraying Donovan. I'm not really sure how you can read it as something else. Immediately after he dies - despite her horror at being confronted with his desiccating body - she notes that the cup wouldn't be made of gold, indicating that she clearly chose poorly on purpose. Also, she basically just grabs the first cup she sees and gives it to Donovan who accepts it because 1) it looks sort of like the typical grail in art (and it looks kinda like a monstrance) and 2) We're shown the Nazis in the film are obsessed with these things but have no appreciation for their meaning. Of course he would assume an ornate chalice was the cup of the king, because he's superficial. Also, it's funnier that the Grail Knight says "He chose poorly" because of course, Donovan chose to listen to Elsa rather than make his own choice.

Indy and Elsa understand the "game" they're playing. Donovan is too obsessed with possession.

As for Grail Madness... I don't think that's quite it. Elsa wants the grail for the fame, the allure of being the discoverer (or one of them) of the true grail. Indy doesn't care about the grail, he wants to save Elsa. When she falls, Indy gets placed in the same position and he's pulled in by the tantalization of the cup - it's just right there. He could save his father again, again and again and save the grail. It takes his father to break this. However, there's definitely a feeling that Henry Sr. is the "pure one."

As for Sallah, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't believe that the Ark or the Grail aren't important holy objects to the precursor religions to his own. They're part of the same religious tradition.

 

[Anwar]

The odd thing is that after what happened with the Ark and the Stones, Indy didn't believe in the Grail or its power until now. Think he'd have learned his lesson over skepticism by this point.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I have always felt that Elsa chose a cup for Donovan she knew couldn't possibly be the Grail, so that yes, she essentially betrayed him. I'm not sure if she wanted the Grail for herself, for Germany, or for Indy (who had proven himself worthy of it). Her motives are kind of ambiguous.

What she did sounds like what Mac (from Indiana Jones And The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull did constantly through the movie.