I'm kinda glad Singer didn't come back to X-Men

[blockaderunner]

Not that I'm saying that Ratner did any better, but here's why.

I just borrowed the Dark Phoenix Saga TPB from my library. It was the first time I've read it in years. Man, if there was a pitch perfect X-Men story, it was that. Simply blows every X-story of the past 20 years away (sorry Morrison and Whedon fans). As tired as the adjective "epic" is used to describe these types of stories is, it fits the Dark Phoenix Saga perfectly.

Which brings us to Bryan Singer.

The guy can't do epic, as evidenced by Superman Returns. And that's not his fault. He has an art house pedegree and I wouldn't expect him to wrap his head around such concepts as the Shi'ar Empire and the destruction of whole galaxies. But those are intergal to the DPS. Anything less diminishes the emotional impact of the storyline. Knowing Singer, he might have made Phoenix level a few buildings, maybe a continent or two if he had the guts. And since he already painted himself in the corner with the whole "realism" angle, there wouldn't have been nary an extraterrestrial in sight. In the hands of a more visonary filmaker, the third X-Men movie not only would have been the perfect oppurtunity to expand the Marvel Universe introducing non-mutant heroes, but the actual universe within the Marvel Universe if that makes sense. Singer, sad to say, doesn't have the ambition, range, and vision to properly adapt the DPS without making major concessions and watering it down until it's barely recognizable as the DPS.

So unless a really good animation group or that mysterious visionary filmaker steps up to the challenge, I'm afraid the real DPS will remain in the comic pages.

 

[Praetor]

I can't add anything but my agreement. I thought he started off on the wrong track, anyway. I disliked many of his decisions.

 

[RoJoHen]

I definitely thought there would have been ways to introduce a Pheonix-like story that didn't need to involve aliens and eating galaxies. I'm not even saying X3 (which still sucks) had the wrong idea. Given the Singer universe, there was no way that aliens would have even made sense. The original story is simply too bizarre for that movie world.

However, X3 focused on a lot of wrong things (killing certain main characters), and it ignored a lot of things that were setup in the previous movies. X2 clearly implied that Magneto's Mutant Machine from X1 was the reason Jean was becoming more powerful, and that should have carried on through X3.

 

[Praetor]

^Well said.

 

[davejames]

To be fair, I don't think Singer was really going for "epic" with SR. He was going more for something magical and poetic -- which I think he succeeded pretty well at.

Clearly a lot of the fans wanted an epic Superman movie (which probably explains a lot of their disappointment), but I don't think that was ever his goal.

 

[roguephoenix]

Not that I'm saying that Ratner did any better, but here's why.

I just borrowed the Dark Phoenix Saga TPB from my library. It was the first time I've read it in years. Man, if there was a pitch perfect X-Men story, it was that. Simply blows every X-story of the past 20 years away (sorry Morrison and Whedon fans). As tired as the adjective "epic" is used to describe these types of stories is, it fits the Dark Phoenix Saga perfectly.

Which brings us to Bryan Singer.

The guy can't do epic, as evidenced by Superman Returns. And that's not his fault. He has an art house pedegree and I wouldn't expect him to wrap his head around such concepts as the Shi'ar Empire and the destruction of whole galaxies. But those are intergal to the DPS. Anything less diminishes the emotional impact of the storyline. Knowing Singer, he might have made Phoenix level a few buildings, maybe a continent or two if he had the guts. And since he already painted himself in the corner with the whole "realism" angle, there wouldn't have been nary an extraterrestrial in sight. In the hands of a more visonary filmaker, the third X-Men movie not only would have been the perfect oppurtunity to expand the Marvel Universe introducing non-mutant heroes, but the actual universe within the Marvel Universe if that makes sense. Singer, sad to say, doesn't have the ambition, range, and vision to properly adapt the DPS without making major concessions and watering it down until it's barely recognizable as the DPS.

So unless a really good animation group or that mysterious visionary filmaker steps up to the challenge, I'm afraid the real DPS will remain in the comic pages.

but he can certainly infuse drama into anything which severly lacked in x3. had singer done it, he's already laid the groundwork for it on x2, he would have been able to drive it home waaaaaaaaaaaay better than that idiot that's only done slapstic comedy action. real tragedy that they let that director anywhere near anything that needed to have drama.

so, as x3 was trashed, i will never ever ever ever agree that singer shouldn't have done x3 because the alternative, which is what we got, was nightmarishly worse.

I definitely thought there would have been ways to introduce a Pheonix-like story that didn't need to involve aliens and eating galaxies. I'm not even saying X3 (which still sucks) had the wrong idea. Given the Singer universe, there was no way that aliens would have even made sense. The original story is simply too bizarre for that movie world.

However, X3 focused on a lot of wrong things (killing certain main characters), and it ignored a lot of things that were setup in the previous movies. X2 clearly implied that Magneto's Mutant Machine from X1 was the reason Jean was becoming more powerful, and that should have carried on through X3.

that's what we get when fox decides it wants it's money NOW and they will not wait for whatever or whomever even if it meant destroying what is making them money. they do the same with their tv series.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Yeah, chalk me up as another who found X3 very heartless and flashy. I can't put my finger on exactly what Singer did differently, but the first two movies had heart, and lots of it. Especially in X2, you really got the feeling these people were like family to one another, and looked after each other. Their relationships were what sold it.

In X3, everybody just kind of did their own thing. There was nothing binding everyone together. While you could say Jean's death caused a fracture in the "family," it wasn't really explored in any meaningful way. Instead, they just went for shock value--killing people off, taking powers away, etc.

I don't think the Dark Phoenix story has to involve aliens and the destruction of galaxies to be an effective tale. In the end, it's just about one person having more power than anyone should, and being completely unable to cope with or control it. Just completely mad with power. I think you can get that across without requiring her to annihilate billions of people.

Instead, in X3, she just plain went evil, killing for no apparent reason, and didn't even seem especially drunk with power. Just had more of a chip on her shoulder than anything else.

I think Singer could have done a better job with this story, making it more personal with much clearer motivations and better character drama.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I did find it kind of funny how X3 was actually closer to the original story than most adaptions of it these days: Phoenix was NOT some alien that had possessed Jean and amplified her powers in the original story, it was just Jean becoming super-powerful and going nuts over it.

 

[T'Baio]

However, X3 focused on a lot of wrong things (killing certain main characters), and it ignored a lot of things that were setup in the previous movies. X2 clearly implied that Magneto's Mutant Machine from X1 was the reason Jean was becoming more powerful, and that should have carried on through X3.

It was implied right from the beginning in X1, I'm positive Singer had that idea from that start. There's a very specific shot, right after Magneto's mutant machine is destroyed, that is a close up of Jean as she has this shocked "what that fuck was that!?!" look on her face. The shot is too obvious to be a coincidence or be nothing at all.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's been a while since I've seen the first one, so I don't really remember. What I do remember is a like from Cyclops in X2 where he basically says, "Wow, Jean, your powers have been really crazy ever since Liberty Island."

 

[Fish1941]

I enjoyed X-MEN 3 and didn't mind the deaths of Xavier, Scott and Jean. Gave the story an operatic quality that I enjoyed. Nor did I miss Bryan Singer at the helm. Granted, I was impressed by his direction of X-MEN 2, but I wasn't that impressed by X-MEN. The first movie in the franchise seemed more like a TV movie than a theatrical release.

 

[coolghoul]

I thought X-men was a good beginning. While I liked a few things (Hugh Jackman's wolverine, Rebecca Romijn-Stamos' Mystique etc), I didn't think it was a great movie - just a good movie. However, I really enjoyed X2 as a great comic-book movie. I thought X3 was pretty bad. I would definitely rate it much worse than X-men. I just thought that the storyline wasn't "treated" right in X3 - it had a good story (The Cure and also the Dark Phoenix Ascendant bit) that needed a better treatment.

Re blockaderunner's original post - I don't think they could have done the Dark Phoenix Saga as-is from the comics - Besides the length, it also has several threads which from a movie perspective would be unnecessary - the Hellfire Club, Mastermind and the whole "Seduction of Jean Grey" bit etc. *in addition* to the Shi'ar and the Phoneix Force explanation? That's way too much without prior buildup.

However, I also didn't buy the movie storyline about how Xavier put blocks in her mind to "control" Jean's runaway powers. It just seemed lame to me. Btw, I thought the 90s cartoon series did a pretty good job with "condensing" the Dark Phoenix saga for viewers.

 

[FalTorPan]

To be fair, I don't think Singer was really going for "epic" with SR. He was going more for something magical and poetic -- which I think he succeeded pretty well at.

Clearly a lot of the fans wanted an epic Superman movie (which probably explains a lot of their disappointment), but I don't think that was ever his goal.

I loved Superman Returns. I hated the X-Men movies that I watched -- which is all of them except X3, or whatever it was called.

 

[Jax]

Well I didn't have the same issues with X Men 3 as others maybe because am not a comic fan nor an X Men fan and before the movies my only exposure to the franchise was the cartoon as a kid growing up. However saying that X Men 2 under Singer IMO is the best of the 3 and for someone who again for the same issues as before is not a Superman fan, I liked SR more than I thought I would...

So I would of loved to see A Singer 3rd film however for the same reason as why Nolan probably won't do a 3rd Batman Movie and why Ratner should of left Spideran after 2...the 2nd film was so good you were always going to be hammered by the fans cause they would compare the two so much it would never be seen as good. If X Men 3 was a film that didn't have 2 before it, I guess the response woul of been bettter.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

The movie Dark Phoenix saga should've been about a Phoenix, Arizona power outage. Jean Grey causes it with her braaaaaaaain magic.

After being injected by the cure a powerless Magneto, now less god than monster, convinces Collosus ( Brendan Fraser) to kill him.

Professor X transfers his mind into that of a more affordable actor (BEN KINGSLEY?).

End credits teaser is a knock on x-mansion door and Wolverine opens it up and there's Blade who says "VAMPIRES DO EXIST!". Setting up the X-Men vs. Dracula movie that we all wanted.

 

[Da'an]

I think of X-Men 3 in the same way as Terminator 3 and Addams Family Reunion, spin-off movies based on the first two films, but not actual sequels.

 

[dragunzng]

What you're saying is you're glad Singer didn't give us a good story and well directed movie because it wouldn't have been "epic"?

I thought Singer's tale was ramping up in intensity slowly but surely. I thought the closing scene was a pretty good indicator that things were really hotting up.

Also, I kinda don't think the point of Superman returns was to be "epic". Majestic probably, but never epic. I don't see much validity in your argument except the obvious fact that the comic book tale is of much broader scope. Singer took a realistic approach to the depiction of the universe, one in my mind that made a lot of financial and commercial sense, and worked just fine artistically. Having a bunch of aliens running around as well would not necessarily have made for a better film.

 

[Thrall]

I just borrowed the Dark Phoenix Saga TPB from my library. It was the first time I've read it in years. Man, if there was a pitch perfect X-Men story, it was that. Simply blows every X-story of the past 20 years away (sorry Morrison and Whedon fans). As tired as the adjective "epic" is used to describe these types of stories is, it fits the Dark Phoenix Saga perfectly.

Morrison raped the characters and the mythology to fuel his own chronic narcissism. Kind of like his Batman and Doom Patrol runs. I still can't believe they haven't retconned his run. Whedon threw in a lot of fun, snappy dialogue and Claremont/Byrne era nostalgia to disguise some pretty by the numbers stories and hoped no one would notice.

What makes That Dark Phoenix Saga so good is that it's not just a Superhero story or a fantasy story or a sci fi story. It's, at it's core, a love story. One of, if not the best, love stories told in the comic medium. There's a reason so many X-Men fans are so batshit crazy about Scott and Jean as a couple. I know I am.

Trying to replace Scott with Logan in X3 was the main reason the movie sucked. It's like trying to replace Angel from Buffy with John Matrix from Commando. Logan lacks the subtlety, nuance, emotional depth, and basic hummanity that Scott has.

That. And it had Warren Worthington The Third. Which is always a bad sign.

Which brings us to Bryan Singer.

The guy can't do epic, as evidenced by Superman Returns. And that's not his fault. He has an art house pedegree and I wouldn't expect him to wrap his head around such concepts as the Shi'ar Empire and the destruction of whole galaxies. But those are intergal to the DPS. Anything less diminishes the emotional impact of the storyline. Knowing Singer, he might have made Phoenix level a few buildings, maybe a continent or two if he had the guts. And since he already painted himself in the corner with the whole "realism" angle, there wouldn't have been nary an extraterrestrial in sight. In the hands of a more visonary filmaker, the third X-Men movie not only would have been the perfect oppurtunity to expand the Marvel Universe introducing non-mutant heroes, but the actual universe within the Marvel Universe if that makes sense. Singer, sad to say, doesn't have the ambition, range, and vision to properly adapt the DPS without making major concessions and watering it down until it's barely recognizable as the DPS.

So unless a really good animation group or that mysterious visionary filmaker steps up to the challenge, I'm afraid the real DPS will remain in the comic pages.

See, the problem with Superman Returns was that Singer isn't a Superman fan. He's a Richard Donner fan. This film was not meant to be a restart like Batman Begins was. It was meant to be a continuation of The Donner Films. The problem is, is that Singer is not Richard Donner. Their styles are completely different. Donner has a simplistic, child-like view of the world similar to George Lucas. Singer is closer to Tarantino in the fact that he's all about being cool and hip, but is able to throw in more depth there then one would normally expect from that type of filmmaker. But Singer usually relies on smart, well-written stories were Tarantino usually relies on a lot of shock humor.

I think the main problem here is that DC fans are much more vocal and have way higher standards then Marvel fans do. Marvel fans are pretty shallow in their devotion IMO. As long as it's entertaining, Marvel fans don't give a shit if Peter Parker uses carterage webbing or shoots it from his hands. DC fans will pretty much throw a shit fit about anything being out of place. Trust me on this.

Of course, I never liked Singer all that much. He changed too much about the characters for me to ever really get into them. He made it all about Wolverine and only about Wolverine. Except his Wolverine was nothing like the Logan we know from the comics. He made Rogue into a whinney emo-kid. He turned Cyclops into such a joke, when they killed him off it was more of a mercy killing. I kind of view his films in the same way that I do Burton's first Batman movie. A fun, entertaining film that is sadly not really all that much faithful to the book.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

It's like trying to replace Angel from Buffy with John Matrix from Commando.

That would've been a better show.

"Wezzlee, wezlee are yoo okay!"

"Vampire...{throws stake} stake around!"

"Vulf, rahm and 'eart...I'll be back!"

Arnold = man's man

Boreanaz = metrosexual

 

[Bri]

Well, I did find it kind of funny how X3 was actually closer to the original story than most adaptions of it these days: Phoenix was NOT some alien that had possessed Jean and amplified her powers in the original story, it was just Jean becoming super-powerful and going nuts over it.

I don't agree. The only thing retconned much later was that Phoenix wasn't Jean at all. In the original story, it was an alien force that saved her life and gave her the crazy power level. It even talked to her as she was dying on the space ship. Suddenly thereafter, everytime Jean/Phoenix talked, even her word balloon looked like the alien word balloon from the ship.

That qualifies as "alien" possession in my book.

Bri