I'm a little confused about Deneb IV and Denebians and the Bandi

[Pahwraith]

Follow me now. In "Encounter at Farpoint," we're presented with a few things.

The planet is Deneb IV.
Groppler Zorn says that the Bandi do not enjoy leaving their home, which is why they can't build other starbases elsewhere.

Additionally, in "The Trouble With Tribbles," the Klingon commander compared Kirk to a Denebian Slime Devil.

Okay, so is a Denebian Slime Devil from Deneb IV? And if so, why did it offend the Enterprise crew when they hadn't been to Deneb yet? Obviously not, since that planet is on the edge of explored space as indicated in Encounter at Farpoint. Additionally, why are they the Bandi when they're on Deneb IV? Would they not be Denebians? Or if not, if they went to that planet due to its abundance in geothermal energy, then that contradicts Groppler Zorns statement that they do not like leaving their planet. Or, he could have simply said that as to not raise suspicions about the alien lifeform that really was the spacestation.

And why do they call it a spacestation if it's on the planet's surface? Hmm.

Lots of questions. Discuss.

 

[Finn]

Why isn't Earth called Huma?

 

[Cicero]

^ Well, Terra is inhabited by Terrans.

Okay, so is a Denebian Slime Devil from Deneb IV? And if so, why did it offend the Enterprise crew when they hadn't been to Deneb yet? Obviously not, since that planet is on the edge of explored space as indicated in Encounter at Farpoint.

There are several systems called 'Deneb' in reality, the names of none of which are simply such, so it's not beyond reason to think they were talking of different Denebs.

A list of Denebs, from Memory Alpha:

• Deneb Dulfim (Epsilon Delphini, tail of the dolphin) - 359 light years away
• Deneb Algiedi (Delta Capricorni, tail of the goat) - 39 light years away
• Deneb Kaitos Schemali (Iota Ceti, tail of the whale) - 290 light years away
• Deneb el Okab (Zeta Aquilae) - 83.2 light years away
• Deneb Algenubi (Eta Ceti), also called simply Dheneb (note differing spelling) - 118 light years away

 

[FredH]

Okay, so is a Denebian Slime Devil from Deneb IV? And if so, why did it offend the Enterprise crew when they hadn't been to Deneb yet? Obviously not, since that planet is on the edge of explored space as indicated in Encounter at Farpoint.

Re the bold: Not necessarily. Deneb might have remained the farthest-explored edge of space in that direction for many decades, while the Federation meanwhile expanded in others. (I could swear I remember a TOS reference to young Kirk having been to Deneb, though I can't place it.)

 

[The Wormhole]

Okay, so is a Denebian Slime Devil from Deneb IV? And if so, why did it offend the Enterprise crew when they hadn't been to Deneb yet? Obviously not, since that planet is on the edge of explored space as indicated in Encounter at Farpoint.

Re the bold: Not necessarily. Deneb might have remained the farthest-explored edge of space in that direction for many decades, while the Federation meanwhile expanded in others. (I could swear I remember a TOS reference to young Kirk having been to Deneb, though I can't place it.)

Only thing close that I can think of is that Kirk's brother and his family lived on Deneva.

 

[Hofner]

Why isn't Earth called Huma?

For all we know the standard alien reference to humans is "Earthworm".

Robert

 

[mythme]

Although I don't have it in front of me at the moment, I'm pretty sure Geoff Mandel's "Star Charts" also makes a distinction between the slime devil Deneb and Bandi Deneb. Also note in the very beginning of EAF, Picard notes that the later lay at the very edge of explored space. It seems unlikely that this boundary would have existed 75 years earlier during the Kirk-years of the 23rd Century.

 

[Timo]

Unlikely, but not impossible: TOS was full of examples of our heroes going to places that had not been visited by humans either yet, or for aeons, despite them being within easy reach of the Enterprise. Clearly, Starfleet doesn't push all the boundaries at an equal rate.

Also, just because a Klingon speaks of Denebian Slime Devils doesn't mean that he, let alone the people he thinks he's offending, would ever have been anywhere near Deneb - or even that the Slime Devils existed in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bintak]

Unlikely, but not impossible: TOS was full of examples of our heroes going to places that had not been visited by humans either yet, or for aeons, despite them being within easy reach of the Enterprise. Clearly, Starfleet doesn't push all the boundaries at an equal rate.

Also, just because a Klingon speaks of Denebian Slime Devils doesn't mean that he, let alone the people he thinks he's offending, would ever have been anywhere near Deneb - or even that the Slime Devils existed in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm paraphrasing here since I can't remember the dialog exactly from TTWT:

Chekov: Mister Scott, he just called the Captain a Denebian slime devil.
Scott: Sit down, Mister. That's an order. We're big enough to take a few insults.

They both knew what a Denebian slime devil was.

 

[Timo]

Sure - they knew it was a Klingon insult!

Still doesn't mean Denebian Slime Devils would have to exist for real.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STIntergalactic]

You don't have to know what one is to know that it sounds like an insult.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The planet is Deneb IV.
Groppler Zorn says that the Bandi do not enjoy leaving their home, which is why they can't build other starbases elsewhere.

Deneb II and Deneb V (both mentioned in TOS, but named as Deneb Kaitos in "ST Star Charts") are colonies of Earth which are now full members of the United Federation of Planets in their own right.

Deneb Kaitos should not be confused with the "true" Deneb (Alpha Cygni, of "Encounter at Farpoint"), the fourth planet of which is home to the Bandi and the location of the original Farpoint Station.

 

[bintak]

Sure - they knew it was a Klingon insult!

Still doesn't mean Denebian Slime Devils would have to exist for real.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't know about that.......

A Denebian slime devil is a foul animal from the Deneb system.
Korax once said that James T. Kirk was a Denebian slime devil, an insult that offended Pavel Chekov. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles"; DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations")
Information about Denebian slime devils was displayed by the computer as an LCARS graphic in Keiko O'Brien's schoolroom on Deep Space 9. (DS9: "A Man Alone", "The Nagus")
The artwork used in the graphic is from the Denebian slime devil entry of the Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual published in 1977.

Taken from here:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Denebian_slime_devil

Its canon, if its on film.

 

[Timo]

So canonically, the Federation learned of the Slime Devils at some point between "Farpoint" and "A Man Alone"... No continuity violation there.

And really, the Devils could originally be fictional, the name being assigned to a particularly nasty real animal at some later point. See the many "dragons" and "salamanders" and, yes, "devils" that made it into the real world eventually...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bintak]

So canonically, the Federation learned of the Slime Devils at some point between "Farpoint" and "A Man Alone"... No continuity violation there.

And really, the Devils could originally be fictional, the name being assigned to a particularly nasty real animal at some later point. See the many "dragons" and "salamanders" and, yes, "devils" that made it into the real world eventually...

Timo Saloniemi

We could Barnum circus this all day, but we can agree on these facts.

a. There are real Denebian slime devils in Trek canon.
b. Being called one, would be akin to calling a Marine a "swab jockey's helper".
c. Chekov understood the term as a fighting insult.
d. Scott ordered him to stand down.
e. We just don't know WHEN the Denebian slime devil was discovered in the Trek verse, though it was floating around the periphery of Trek since 1977, long before DS-9 canonized it taking it from that part of the Starfleet Medical Reference Manual.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Fleet_Medical_Reference_Manual

The Memory Alpha follow up on the Dsd lists its origin as Deneb IV.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Deneb_IV

Confusion exists, as you can see. Kirk visited a planet called Deneb IV with Gary Mitchell. (WNMHGB). That is canon. It fits the description as an origin point for the Denebian slime devil as of TOS timeline.

Precedent trumps postcedent. Kirk's Deneb IV is Deneb IV first before Picard. Therefore, the Feds visited a possible Dsd source world in the TOS.

So far, circumstantially, it looks like I own this elephant?

 

[Timo]

The idea that the Slime Devils come from Deneb IV is just baseless supposition, which I don't readily accept. However, the idea that the "Where No Man" Deneb IV is the same as the "Farpoint" Deneb IV is baseless supposition that I do readily accept!

And really, I prefer to read Star Charts so that Deneb Kaitos is the Deneb IV mentioned in both those episodes, and that the vast unexplored wilderness beyond is not unexplored because of great distance but because that direction is poor in stars or pressing reasons...

(Just to explicate something that was implicit in a couple of previous posts, there's a good reason why the real skies are full of Denebs. Namely, the word is (poorly translitterated) Arabic for Tail. So any constellation that depicts an animal with a tail is likely to have its Deneb or two. The same goes for all the Rigels, which in turn are Legs to the various heavenly beasts.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bintak]

The idea that the Slime Devils come from Deneb IV is just baseless supposition, which I don't readily accept. However, the idea that the "Where No Man" Deneb IV is the same as the "Farpoint" Deneb IV is baseless supposition that I do readily accept!

And really, I prefer to read Star Charts so that Deneb Kaitos is the Deneb IV mentioned in both those episodes, and that the vast unexplored wilderness beyond is not unexplored because of great distance but because that direction is poor in stars or pressing reasons...

(Just to explicate something that was implicit in a couple of previous posts, there's a good reason why the real skies are full of Denebs. Namely, the word is (poorly translitterated) Arabic for Tail. So any constellation that depicts an animal with a tail is likely to have its Deneb or two. The same goes for all the Rigels, which in turn are Legs to the various heavenly beasts.)

Timo Saloniemi

Shrug. The fact is that on Trek screen we get mention of the TOS Deneb IV. Then somebody publishes a book in the real world that fictionally describes the Denebian slime devil and sells it as Paramount-sanctioned merchandise. That book identifies Deneb IV as the sliime devil's home before we get Berman Trek and Farpoint Staion. Then THAT BOOK is used as source material for DS-9. That makes it source material canon and copyright protected as to ideas. Now take your opinion (which is persdonally very valid) and rthose starcharts [which have no bearing ort standing on the Trek fictional universe canon, since the fictional universe is the ONLY admissible evidence the court allows concerning the Denebian slime devil question since it, the devil, does not in the real world exist, only in the world of Star Trek, thus only Start Trek evidence would be admitted-think of this as a plagiarism or coipyright law case] into court and I take my circumstantial Start Trek evidence of Denebian slime devil idea ownership and origin into court?

Who wins?

I win, on the preponderence of the Star Trek admissible evidence cited.

Remember. Your opinion can be valid (and your opinion most defintely can be in the real world), but when it comes to fiction, what the first author says in his fiction, is what is in the composite construct. Everything fictional in that construct, that follows, must reconcile to the first fiction written.

Authority is in the author, in other words.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Since authority is in the author, I believe that means neither of you win (until one of you gets hired by CBS or Paramount and makes an episode of Star Trek that clarifies this). Until that time, you both could be right, though.

 

[Sheliak]

Behold the awesome power of mispronunciation!

 

[SonicRanger]

If I call you a Mexican goat sucker, it doesn't mean you or I have been to Mexico or that Chupacabras actually exist... But you'd probably recognize it as an insult.