If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latinum?

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Exactly.

You want a more substantive answer to the distinction between slavery and taxation for social welfare programs?

Here's one:

Slaves don't get a return on the wealth they create. None whatsoever.

Citizens being taxed, however, get a return on the wealth they create for the government. How so? First off, because the welfare programs they're supporting will be there to protect them in their time of need, too -- it's not just for other people. Secondly, they benefit from those programs even if they don't use them.

A prime example is the public education system. Now, it has serious problems, certainly. But the fact remains that a quality public education system benefits the community it is in; it creates a more educated populace that is both able to make better decisions at the polls and which is more valuable to employers, in turn attracting more businesses and creating more economic opportunities in the area.

And all because the government is able to force its citizens to pay for children's education whether they like it or not.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I understand. Finally...I think...I understand. So charity should be forced...and money should be taken from someone, to give to another who "needs" it more than he/she does...as far as you're concerned.

Tell me, Sci...how is that any different from the mindset of a "desperate" robber, down on his luck, who breaks into the house of someone who's better off than him...and steals from that someone?

First, charity is good, but it isn't enough. Only the government, through taxes, can wield enough money to effectively fight poverty. Second, no it's not robbery, any more that any taxes are robbery. Do you object to taxpayer money being used, say, for firefighting? After all, who says your house will ever can catch on fire? You may live your entire life without ever needing the firefighters. But (leaving aside that your taxes, no matter how they were acquired, are still helping save other people's lives) you'll still gladly pay for it (and be happy other people are paying for it as well) because you know that one day, if a fire was to threaten YOU, you'll have someone to turn to for help. It's same with social security nets - you're not just helping yoursef at the expense of others like your hipotethical robber, but through helping the general good, you're also helping yourself.

I will gladly pay for security--for firefighters, for police, for the military, etc.--for services that will benefit me, by protecting my property, my rights, and my freedom.

I am paying them for their ability to keep my property and rights safe and secure.

I do not like paying for those who will give no benifit to me, who do nothing for me except continue to drain funds from my wallet.

Now in answer to your question: if I were truly poor, and unemployed, and so on--would I want those benefits?

The answer is: no! I do not want a crutch. I do not want to be propped up. What I want is to live my life knowing that what I get, I earn. I do not wish to be dependant on anyone unless absolutely neccesary--such as if my life is at stake--or, again, if my property and/or my rights are at stake. And above all else, I do not want a handout, knowing full well that that money was taken from someone else by force, without their consent, because of my alleged "need". That, again, would make ne no better than a robber.

If this makes me "naive"--well, so be it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I am lecturing you of nothing of the sort.

I am claiming that a truly free market--without interference from the government--without the use of force--will most effectively help all of society--rich, middle class, and poor--will allow the individual to stand up, and climb the ladder until he/she is satified.

Please, Rush, I asked you up-thread to give me an example of this 'true' free market. Will you? Otherwise it's just as unrealistic and dogmatic as people that proclaimed communism as the solution to all society's ills.

I did give you an example: America under Calvin Coolidge.

As I stated: lowest unemployment rate on record--1.8%, together with immense innovations of technology.

In fact, scratch that, I'll give you an example of unregulated capitalism. In fact, for most of it's history capitalism has been unregulated. And those were the times of the worst exploatation of workers one can imagine - you know, children working in mines, people working all day without rest in horendously unhealthy conditions, stuff like that. It took government intervention to end those practices. So forgive me if on this matter I believe the government more than the capitalists.

Again--the proper function of government is to protect rights--in this case, the right to life. Those companies were commiting murder, and therefore the government was within its rights to step in.

 

[neozeks]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I did give you an example: America under Calvin Coolidge.

As I stated: lowest unemployment rate on record--1.8%, together with immense innovations of technology.

And you don't think by any chance that the short-term gains in the long term lead to the Great Depression?

Again--the proper function of government is to protect rights--in this case, the right to life. Those companies were commiting murder, and therefore the government was within its rights to step in.

Ah, I see. So if, say, someone's right to life is threatened because despite his best efforts he can't find a job and thus pay for food or life-saving medical therapy, the government is within it's rights to step in and help him?

 

[stonester1]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I will gladly pay for security--for firefighters, for police, for the military, etc.--for services that will benefit me, by protecting my property, my rights, and my freedom.

I am paying them for their ability to keep my property and rights safe and secure.

I do not like paying for those who will give no benifit to me, who do nothing for me except continue to drain funds from my wallet.

Exactly. I can't subscribe to the "Fuck you, I've got mine" model of civics.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^ I don't agree. There are certain things, such as firefighting, military defense, and civil policing, which almost by definition cannot be trusted to private enterprise. (Although I believe the very first firefighters were actually hired by insurance companies - they only protected houses that belonged to their policyholders. Imagine how THAT turned out...)

There's not a LOT of things that can only be run by the government, but those things are some examples.

 

[stonester1]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^ I don't agree. There are certain things, such as firefighting, military defense, and civil policing, which almost by definition cannot be trusted to private enterprise. (Although I believe the very first firefighters were actually hired by insurance companies - they only protected houses that belonged to their policyholders. Imagine how THAT turned out...)

There's not a LOT of things that can only be run by the government, but those things are some examples.

But the reason to back them is not just because the benefit you personally. That if a government service does not benefit YOU personally, directly, there is no reason to support it.

Poppycock, I say.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^ I don't agree. There are certain things, such as firefighting, military defense, and civil policing, which almost by definition cannot be trusted to private enterprise. (Although I believe the very first firefighters were actually hired by insurance companies - they only protected houses that belonged to their policyholders. Imagine how THAT turned out...)

There's not a LOT of things that can only be run by the government, but those things are some examples.

But the reason to back them is not just because the benefit you personally. That if a government service does not benefit YOU personally, directly, there is no reason to support it.

Those services do benefit me personally. And everyone else as well.

 

[stonester1]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

^ I don't agree. There are certain things, such as firefighting, military defense, and civil policing, which almost by definition cannot be trusted to private enterprise. (Although I believe the very first firefighters were actually hired by insurance companies - they only protected houses that belonged to their policyholders. Imagine how THAT turned out...)

There's not a LOT of things that can only be run by the government, but those things are some examples.

But the reason to back them is not just because the benefit you personally. That if a government service does not benefit YOU personally, directly, there is no reason to support it.

Those services do benefit me personally. And everyone else as well.

My point is, that should not be the measure of a government service, certainly alone.

 

[Penta]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Now in answer to your question: if I were truly poor, and unemployed, and so on--would I want those benefits?

The answer is: no! I do not want a crutch. I do not want to be propped up. What I want is to live my life knowing that what I get, I earn. I do not wish to be dependant on anyone unless absolutely neccesary--such as if my life is at stake--or, again, if my property and/or my rights are at stake. And above all else, I do not want a handout, knowing full well that that money was taken from someone else by force, without their consent, because of my alleged "need". That, again, would make ne no better than a robber.

If this makes me "naive"--well, so be it.

Here's where I'm going to pose a question to you, Rush.

I'm disbaled IRL. The net does a good job of hiding it, but I am.

I draw SSI disability.

Have you ever been on public assistance?

I'm going to wager the answer is no.

A hint. Nobody getting any sort of public money before old age, whether SSI or Medicaid or even food stamps...

Nobody that I know of who's had to access such things likes it. (There's a reason what used to be food stamps now comes in a debit card and has gotten a few name changes over the years - the stigma.)

For me? I pretty desperately try to work - even though, quite peversely (and this is an argument I'm frankly amazed you haven't tried on Sci, though you win no points for trying it now that I've brought it up), I lose money by working at anything close to an entry-level wage.

(The max you can earn under SSI, and the number's at this level only if you're legally blind like I am, is something like $900 per month. (It might be higher, but I remember the numbers are really, really low for the Northeast US.) Funnily enough, you get a higher limit if you're blind than you do otherwise (it makes sense if you think about it). You also can't have more than $2000 in liquid assets -at any time-. Or else you pay the government back. This can be a pain in the ass when, as inevitably happens, they overpay you....Then underpay you....Then take money back to correct for the overpay....Then correct for the underpay....)

Point is, I am actually disincentivized from working. My wages have to get to a fairly steep level above minimum wage before it really can be said I come out ahead from working. Because I pay taxes, unemployment insurance, etc, etc on every dime I work just like if I don't receive any government benefits, and I also pay taxes and the like on my SSI income.

So I'm going to ask you: I never asked to be disabled. I am disabled basically as a direct result of being born.

Am I, as you put it, "no better than a robber"?

Now extend it out. The disincentive to work is actually a common with a lot of government programs - I can name Medicaid and foot stamps from either my own experience (Medicaid) or that of people I've known (food stamps).

When one is actually penalized for working, are you really going to say they're "no better than robbers"?

I give you no benefit.

You'd take that away?

Do you know why these programs were created? Do you have the faintest idea what usually happens to, say, the disabled without government support?

...Nah, don't answer that. I'll tell you.

Until the 1960s, people like me got locked away in institutions for our entire lives.

Those institutions? Were hellholes of the first order.

Why were the disabled usually sent to institutions? I'll tell you straight out:

Because no charity in the world has the resources to support the disabled in any more than an incredibly patchwork manner.

More often, to be disabled meant you got killed. Out of hand.

You can be on your high horse about taking government assistance making people no more than robbers, but I want you to realize right now what the alternatives would be.

It's not a theoretical game.

One choice gives me a life. A frustrating life, one I would never choose, but a life.

The other choice either signs my death warrant or condemns me to being a virtual prisoner. For committing no crime. Except, perhaps, inconveniently existing.

 

[stonester1]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Thus, the history of all this, through the lense of one life. If anyone has trouble with the big history, well, here it is, shrunken down to one guy.

 

[Penta]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Damn, I'm that good, stonester? *bows*

Half the length of that came because I was annoyed my mom's new puppy had pissed on the carpet.

 

[stonester1]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I think some of those who criticize government civil efforts look at it in the abstract, and for some reason can't connect it to individual people.

I think stories like yours may help some to do so.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

This is General Trek Discussion. As I said in the last thread, if you want to discuss politics, we have The Neutral Zone. I shouldn't have to go through pages to find something Trek related. Everyone is fairly civil (so notifying me isn't really appreciated, honestly), but it's beyond off topic. Best of luck with having a good discussion wherever you continue this outside this forum.

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