I see those "various reasons" as exactly why they shouldn't stay away.
I think I know what the "unexplored event" is going to be.
- Thread starter JRoss
- Start date
Fair enough. They did though pretty much remove the 4 years war and Axanar being a fight against the Klingons from canon tonight.
The way the Albino was depicted in DS9, he didn't seem like a Klingon at all. In the novels he was a Klingon, treated as an outcast because of his albinism and raised by Orions since he was a baby. Perhaps the outcast treatment of those with pale skin was an inspiration for the Voq character?
Kor
Kor
Honestly? If it turns out to be the battle of Axanar, I'm going to come back here with a beer and popcorn, just to see people go wild.
I don’t want Axanar but if Axanar ends up being depicted, I’ll be fine with it. Peters’ little toadies will be a livid nuisance but they’re easy to ignore.
It’s the Battle of Donatu V.
I agree.
A shapeshifter that stole his identity, and went mad with power?
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Honestly? If it turns out to be the battle of Axanar, I'm going to come back here with a beer and popcorn, just to see people go wild.
Save me a seat.
I honestly think Axanar has the most opportunity and rich potential to be the "event" just given what Kirk says in "Whom Gods Destroy."
KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.
GARTH: Mister Spock, do you consider Captain Kirk and yourself brothers?
SPOCK: Captain Kirk speaks somewhat figuratively and with undue emotion. However, what he says is logical and I do, in fact, agree with it.
It reads as if it were a foundational and pivotal element in forming the Federation and Starfleet that we came to know during the TOS timeframe and in building stronger, more meaningful relationships between the Federation member races.
Forgetting the "real universe" BS that has gone on the past couple of years....I think this is an awesome place to do a Star Trek series, if that is indeed what it is. It would demonstrate that the "war" because of the outcome and the way it was handled was actually a necessary (costly) evil that lead to something greater and more prosperous.
That's a good Trek story if that's indeed it.
Seeing as how humanity in general still doesn't know how to get over their differences and just get along, such a pivotal event would definitely be apropos for Star Trek.
Kor
That's my hope. That you do a Trek "space war" show that ends up MEANING something. That we had to go through this horrible experience to become the Federation and Starfleet that we know and love. That's a story worth telling. It's also, unfortunately, how real human history has often worked. Our greatest achievements and advancements have often come at the terrible price of war.
And then the real Garth sues for copyright infringement, er I mean for slander and impersonating a military officer, and the con artist-- heck, let's say it's Harry Mudd!-- claims "fair use." After all Garth of Izar is a famous and beloved "character" who's been around more than 50 years! Plus Mudd claims his "version" of Garth is far better than what the "real" Garth is nowadays, with all the lens flares and such, and HIS Garth is what the fans, er, the people, want to see!
Where does this read as a "foundation and pivotal element in forming the Federation?" It reads to me like Garth's battle was just that-- a battle. It sounds like Kirk is referencing the peace mission he was on, not the battle, and when Garth criticizes "politicians" Kirk is essentially responding by saying it was politicians that founded the federation. Also, we know that the Federation was founded long before the Battle of Axanar. It was mentioned in TOS long before it was shown on ENT.
No, to me, Garth is nothing more than a renowned captain who won an important battle against an unknown aggressor.
I didn't say anything about Garth...so not sure why that is even relevant to the discussion.
The relevant quotes to my point were that
1. Kirk acknowledges that there was a time when war was "necessary"
2. Kirk indicates that Axanar lead to a significant peace mission of some sort
3. Kirk indicates that the "dream" that the humanitarians and statesmen had was the enabler for he and Spock to think of themselves as "brothers."
That seems pretty significant.
And...since you brought up Garth...Kirk earlier says that he was the finest starship captain...the model for everyone who came after.
I'd say that is also significant.
But that wasn't my point.
1. Kirk acknowledges that there was a time when war was "necessary"
Granted.
2. Kirk indicates that Axanar lead to a significant peace mission of some sort
That's not how I read it.
3. Kirk indicates that the "dream" that the humanitarians and statesmen had was the enabler for he and Spock to think of themselves as "brothers."
Granted, but does not necessarily relate to Garth or the Battle of Axanar.
Basically what I'm getting at is how fans have blown this "Battle of Axanar" into this seminal moment in Federation history, when in reality he was no more important than any guest star character said to be a historically important person (Cochrane, Daystrom, Mark Peterson, etc)
I think the expanded universe of books, comics, and RPGs has overinflated Garth and the battle's importance. I think the intent of the episode was that he was one of the best military tacticians Starfleet history who won an important battle, nothing more.
I don't think there's anything more intriguing to explore about him than there is a thousand other random episode guest stars.
Granted.
2. Kirk indicates that Axanar lead to a significant peace mission of some sort
That's not how I read it.
3. Kirk indicates that the "dream" that the humanitarians and statesmen had was the enabler for he and Spock to think of themselves as "brothers."
Granted, but does not necessarily relate to Garth or the Battle of Axanar.
Basically what I'm getting at is how fans have blown this "Battle of Axanar" into this seminal moment in Federation history, when in reality he was no more important than any guest star character said to be a historically important person (Cochrane, Daystrom, Mark Peterson, etc)
I think the expanded universe of books, comics, and RPGs has overinflated Garth and the battle's importance. I think the intent of the episode was that he was one of the best military tacticians Starfleet history who won an important battle, nothing more.
I don't think there's anything more intriguing to explore about him than there is a thousand other random episode guest stars.
Again, you somehow confuse my point about the story potential for expanding upon this idea of what "Axanar" was with something to do with Garth.
I don't give a shit about Garth, and that's been said repeatedly. I was simply saying that if you threw out all of the non-canon stuff that refers back to the event, and you recognize that the writers said they based their thoughts on the series around an event that was mentioned In TOS (that's fact)...based on the dialogue in Whom Gods Destroy that I quoted, you can see how there is story potential.
I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm not saying it's the best idea ever. I'm certainly not saying anything about Garth.
I'm just speculating in the spirit of the intent of this thread.
Fair enough. Not going to argue that. And this isn't a rebuke, but to add: I don't think there's any more story potential in Garth than there is in, say, a prequel about any other guest star, or newly created Federation captain.
Agreed that the Axanar Peace Mission might have little to do with Garth. The big question we can sort of tackle here, with material from the episode, is the timing. Kirk was a "new fledged cadet" on the Peace Mission, and studied Garth's victory when "a cadet". So the episode allows us to put Garth's battle either a bit before or long before the Peace Mission, or a bit after but not long after. If Garth ruined the peace with his battle afterwards, he wouldn't be remembered fondly in the context. But if he saved the peace with his battle, he would, and while Garth dismisses the role of statesmen, Kirk doesn't dismiss the role of Garth.
That doesn't mean we are forbidden from dismissing Garth, tho. Axanar was a big thing for Kirk, and Garth was a big thing for Kirk. But Garth wasn't a big thing for Spock and that "brothers" thing, or for the UFP at large, from what we gather there.
So the intrigue for me here is in the potential of Axanar being dramatically significant despite being a battleground, not because of being one. How often does that happen?
Timo Saloniemi
That doesn't mean we are forbidden from dismissing Garth, tho. Axanar was a big thing for Kirk, and Garth was a big thing for Kirk. But Garth wasn't a big thing for Spock and that "brothers" thing, or for the UFP at large, from what we gather there.
So the intrigue for me here is in the potential of Axanar being dramatically significant despite being a battleground, not because of being one. How often does that happen?
Timo Saloniemi
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