I have a bit of a problem with La'an being bullied (And Spock in st2009)

[hxclespaulplayer]

I don't believe children in the 23rd century would do that. Like, in the present day, if I made a paper plane that didn't fly properly, someone might say "I can make my plane better than yours". But someone with more evolved sensibilities might say "Your center of gravity is off, and your wing tips need to be further back". Even children in the 23rd century don't do "I can run faster than you" or "My dad could lick your dad".

 

[Kzinti]

I don't believe children in the 23rd century would do that.

then you are very naive

 

[Sparky]

Just how much do you think humanity has evolved here? Humans are still humans, just with the luxury of a post-scarcity world. Kids are still kids, and will act like kids no matter if they are from the 16th, 21st, or 23rd century.

Even children in the 23rd century don't do "I can run faster than you" or "My dad could lick your dad"..

Maybe you had a different upbringing, but even in the 20th century, I never had a kid tell me that his dad could lick my dad, probably a little too kinky for a kid to mention to another kid.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't believe children in the 23rd century would do that. Like, in the present day, if I made a paper plane that didn't fly properly, someone might say "I can make my plane better than yours". But someone with more evolved sensibilities might say "Your center of gravity is off, and your wing tips need to be further back". Even children in the 23rd century don't do "I can run faster than you" or "My dad could lick your dad".

When is Federation society supposed to be perfect, may I ask? Because I found it ludicrous they gave up hunting and eating meat in the 22nd century.

Also, Spock was bullied by Vulcans who are people who practice gladiator fights.

 

[dupersuper]

"My dad could lick your dad".

Phrasing!

When is Federation society supposed to be perfect, may I ask?

It's at least supposed to be better.

 

[Timofnine]

Quoting another poster on this board, I forget who…

Human’s going to human…

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

someone with more evolved sensibilities might say "Your center of gravity is off, and your wing tips need to be further back".

Despite what the first season of TNG may imply, humans are never going to be that wussified.

 

[Stuart Wilson]

Society might evolve, but humans haven't. We no longer have a death penalty here in the UK but it still exists in other countries. We aren't "more evolved" as a species than the people in the countries which do have one, and some people here still call for one occasionally.

There are countries now where being gay is a crime but they aren't populated by a less evolved species. Trek may represent a better society. But it is still peopled by individuals who are like us, better educated, more civilised yes, but take the society away and people would revert to other behaviours depending on their nature. We've seen that time and time again in the series. Quark calls it out in an episode of DS9 I forget which, where he states that humans can be as violent as any Klingon IIRC.

The point is that collectively we should strive to improve society, but even if we "perfect" it we will still need to strive to maintain it in it's improved form. Some children will always bully others, society may tolerate it less and take action against the perpetrators to improve their behaviour, but the innate behaviour is still present in some people.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

Quoting another poster on this board, I forget who…

I don't believe that greed, and many other "human" things are a result of being human. They're a product of culture. No baby is born greedy, or jealous, or lazy, or anything else. We don't talk to one another, we talk at one another. Like, I might tell you "Have a nice weekend". Why not have a nice life, why just the weekend? The future isn't about shooting at each other in ships and with hand phasers, it's about overcoming scarcity and bringing everyone up to a high standard of living. We're trying to communicate with aliens, but why? The Republicans can't communicate with Democrats, husbands can't communicate with wives, how do we expect to be able to communicate with aliens?

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

Society might evolve, but humans haven't. We no longer have a death penalty here in the UK but it still exists in other countries. We aren't "more evolved" as a species than the people in the countries which do have one, and some people here still call for one occasionally.

People in the future won't be locked up, they'll be helped. We don't know how to correct aberrant behavior and nobody comes out of prison any better than when they went in. Everyone is a victim of culture. Have you heard of Albert Fish? He cut off the genitals of lots of boys. The public wanted to burn him alive. A psychiatrist said don't do that, I want to find out what made him that way. It turns out he was playing with himself at a very young age and his mother, a Baptist, said he'll burn eternally in hell for it. So he went around cutting off kids' genitals, so they wouldn't go to hell.

Do we think ancient Romans watching Christians being fed to lions were insane? No, that was just normal to that culture.

 

[Mudd]

I don't believe that greed, and many other "human" things are a result of being human.

That's unfortunate, because they are.

The notion that we might evolve or reform ourselves into angels is a pernicious lie expressed way too often in Star Trek. The relative lack of this stuff in SNW is one of the best things about it.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

That's unfortunate, because they are.

The notion that we might evolve or reform ourselves into angels is a pernicious lie expressed way too often in Star Trek. The relative lack of this stuff in SNW is one of the best things about it.

If i raise a baby in a post-scarcity society, they would not be greedy, when they have access to what they want. A public library has access to books and all manner of other resources, how often do you hear about someone stealing library books or hoarding books, extending their loan time after time? There's a place in Jamaica called Rios Oches - meeting of eight rivers - lots of clean drinking water. Nobody drives up there with a water tanker and steals water.

I had a dog that would growl whenever I picked up the cat. Some might say that's inbred behavior. So I fed the dog fresh liver and picked up the cat, repeated that about a dozen times. Instead of growling the 13th time, his tail wagged. If that behavior were inborn, he'd still growl.

To me, it seems that this guy knows more about human behavior and human nature anyone I've met:

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[Kamen Rider Blade]

When is Federation society supposed to be perfect, may I ask? Because I found it ludicrous they gave up hunting and eating meat in the 22nd century.

I concur, maybe certain people gave it up; but I doubt everybody who had a family history of hunting & eating freshly killed meat that was properly prepared as a family tradition would give that up.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more people who don't give up traditional Non-Replicator valued foods and eat Organic foods grown the "Old Fashioned" way.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

I concur, maybe certain people gave it up; but I doubt everybody who had a family history of hunting & eating freshly killed meat that was properly prepared as a family tradition would give that up.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more people who don't give up traditional Non-Replicator valued foods and eat Organic foods grown the "Old Fashioned" way.

That's just people reflecting their culture. Some people would want to live in houses hundreds of years old, no electricity, even if fireproof, hurricane-proof buildings were available. But they'll happily use a laptop - I'm surprised they don't still use pen and paper.

 

[Tuskin38]

Kids will be kids.

 

[Mudd]

If i raise a baby in a post-scarcity society, they would not be greedy, when they have access to what they want. ...

Yeah, okay, whatever.

I guess You'll just have to continue living with neither fiction nor reality supporting your beliefs. I'm sure glad that Trek has returned to the kinds of characterization and narrative that made it worthwhile to begin with.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm surprised they don't still use pen and paper.

Nothing wrong with the classics of Pen & Paper.

Your Penmen-ship is important along with reading/writing in cursive IMO.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

Yeah, okay, whatever.

I guess You'll just have to continue living with neither fiction nor reality supporting your beliefs. I'm sure glad that Trek has returned to the kinds of characterization and narrative that made it worthwhile to begin with.

There have been cultures without greed, or money. Ones that have had no word for work, and when they caught fish, they'd hand them out to anyone standing there. They didn't go "You owe me $5, you owe me $10". A guy spent some time with them and they went into his hut, distributing the gifts he bought among themselves. Because he had "too many". They also made him an outrigger canoe, free of charge. He didn't use it for a couple of weeks, so they took it away, which kind of shocked him. They said "You don't use!". It's hard to understand what behavior in a post-scarcity soiciety would be like when we've been locked into this system for thousands of years. There's no need to want more than someone else or to hoard post-scarcity - and if you have what you want available when you want it, you don't want to own it. Owning a car is a pain in the ass, you have to insure it maintain it - what you really want is access to a car.

 

[Tuskin38]

Bullies will exist no matter the upbringing.

Children will be children. They’re not old enough to know better yet.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

Bullies will exist no matter the upbringing.

Children will be children. They’re not old enough to know better yet.

I know a family where one child became a minister and the other became a gangbanger. It was their upbringing - one child was always favored over the other, being told "You leave your toys everywhere, why can't you be like your brother". Also there was a study on 60 minutes, where a scene of one puppet helping the other was played out - then they showed a scene of a puppet hindering the other. The babies always reached for the helpful puppet. Even at a few months, when they can't reach, they'd focus more on the helpful puppet. If they weren't old enough to know better, they wouldn't do that.