I don't think Luke's parentage was a huge secret to cast/crew during filming of TESB

[Macgyver]

Mark Hamill has told a story many times to the effect of "the script says 'Obi Wan killed your father' but James Earl Jones changes the line and says "I am your father" - and only he and Hamill knew of this.

I understand that keeping a "big reveal" is exciting, and I don't doubt that they tried to keep spoilers as 'hush-hush' as possible, but I think this is was only a fun story to tell in retrospect 30-40 years later. I don't think the degree of secrecy that Mark Hamill, George Lucas, and James Earl Jones imply is actually true. Here is my reasoning:

Firstly, after the big reveal, Vader then says:

" Luke. You can destroy the Emperor.
He has foreseen this. It is your
destiny. Join me, and together
we can rule the galaxy as father
and son. Come with me. It is the
only way."

Was the original line for cast and crew just to say "Join me as master and apprentice" or something? It doesn't seem like good motivation to join Vader (who is objectively a villain) just because he says your master is also a bad guy.

Secondly, earlier in the film Yoda says:

"Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father." -

surely this line is to correlate Luke, anger, and the dark side, and in retrospect makes the audience realize that Vader is Luke's father. Why would the script use that specific line if Luke's father is actually a "good guy" - was this line also changed in post so that it was kept secret from the cast and crew? So is now Frank Oz in on the secret?

Thirdly, at the end of the film, Luke telepathically speaks to Vader and calls him father. The Dialog at 1:57:50 in the film is

Vader :Luke
Luke: Father
Vader: Come with me
Luke: Ben, why didn't you tell me
Vader: Luke it is your destiny
luke: Ben, why didn't you tell me

Does the cast and crew think that vader is taunting luke, and why is luke saying "father"? Everyone is watching Mark Hamill laying on a medical bay, none of them ask why he says the word "father"? Is this dialog exchange also swapped out, if so, what does the original script say?

Fourth, when vader and the emperor speak, perhaps I misunderstand the dialog, but twice Vader tries to steer the conversation away from Killing Luke. Yes- in all the script versions, Vader wants to overthrow the emperor, but

Spoiler: Lengthy exchange

EMPEROR
He could destroy us.

VADER
He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no
longer help him.

EMPEROR
The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER
If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR
Yes. Yes. He would be a great
asset. Can it be done?

VADER
He will join us or die, my
master.

Here's an interview with the editor of the movie, where he also says it was a secret, but then afterwards says and he says he wasn't given the dialog, but then afterwards he says "I'm blurry on that" and "I find that irrelevant" https://www.youtube.com/live/yPhphAXq5b4?feature=share&t=1250

I understand that in a rough draft of the script, Luke's father appears as a ghost and mentions Luke's sister, and Vader still says "together we could rule the galaxy" - but that script is vastly different than the finished product and would not have been used by the cast or crew - http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-empire-strikes-back-first-draft-by-leigh-brackett-transcript/

I've also seen the fourth draft script date 1978- which doesn't mention the fathe/ son thing - but also luke doesn't lose his hand

and finally there is the fifth draft script from 1980 which allegedly has the father reveal omitted, This website sold a copy of that script, but they don't show what these alternate lines would have looked like https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/mo...empire-strikes-back-tcf-1980-/a/7351-89517.s#

My last comments would be -

1) Did Mark Hamill need any acting direction during the med-bay scene on the Falcon? Did the director have to say in front of the rest of the cast "Now, you just learned that Obi-wan killed your father, so you need to act sad, and say father while you telepathically speak with Darth Vader"
2) Did the people in the sound booth with James Earl Jones cover their ears when he made his recordings?
3) If "Obi-wan killed your father" was actually said, how come that never came out as a spoiler prior to the movie's release? Certainly the fake dialog would have been revealed and shared. We are to believe that George lucas did not trust the crew, but they were actually trustworthy all along?

Also, here is an alleged article of David Prowse also being aware of the secret in 1978 https://i.stack.imgur.com/3V0wA.jpg

Thank you for reading - I don't mean to make a grand conspiracy out of this, I just don't think that logistically this was as big a secret as the internet makes it out to be. I don't doubt that efforts were taken to exclude the line from the script. I don't think the rest of the plot holds up when you change that line, though. I don't think making Obi-Wan the killer of Luke's father (from a certain point of view) would encourage Luke to join the dark side, and would make the rest of the plot fall apart.

 

[Tosk]

Also, here is an alleged article of David Prowse also being aware of the secret in 1978 https://i.stack.imgur.com/3V0wA.jpg

I've seen a lot of people try to argue that Prowse was simply guessing. I don't buy it.

Almost every legend about the making of Star Wars has grown over time (Just as with Trek) to make a better story. The idea that no one except George, Irvin, and Mark knew at the time makes for a good story, but I doubt its veracity.

 

[The Wormhole]

IIRC, Harrison Ford claims he had no idea Vader was Luke's father until the premiere night screening, so there's that.

 

[Tuskin38]

On set, the line was that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father.

 

[Macgyver]

On set, the line was that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father.

but in the context of the film, that line doesn't make much sense. There are other scenes and lines that lead to Luke being Vader's son. Those other scenes would need to have been changed as well, but there is no reference to this, all anyone says is the line "obi-wan killed your father"

IIRC, Harrison Ford claims he had no idea Vader was Luke's father until the premiere night screening, so there's that.

the only information I can find on this is Mark Hamill telling the tale to Graham Norton. Harrison himself hasn't commented on this. -
https://www.news.com.au/entertainme...k/news-story/262afbce07bb4862f386b64ba9fc3915

So did Harrison read the script and not notice that Luke calls Vader father - or where other lines and scenes of the script excluded as well?

This article says that Harrison Ford saw a preview of the film, certainly the "I am your father" line would appear in this cut of the film, right?
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/george-lucas-hated-harrison-ford-i-know-line

but this article says that Harrison ford didn't know about the twist until the premier.
https://ew.com/movies/2019/12/09/star-wars-empire-strikes-back-writer-twist/

So what did Harrison ford see in the preview version of the film? Did it say "Obi Wan killed your father" and the other scenes just make no sense?

Almost every legend about the making of Star Wars has grown over time (Just as with Trek) to make a better story. The idea that no one except George, Irvin, and Mark knew at the time makes for a good story, but I doubt its veracity.

Yes, I agree with this. I believe that some version of this story is true, but I feel like I see holes of Mark Hamill's version of him being kept to secrecy and no one knowing until the film's premier.

 

[The Wormhole]

So did Harrison read the script and not notice that Luke calls Vader father - or where other lines and scenes of the script excluded as well?

It's not uncommon for actors to only read the scenes they're in in a script. Indeed, some acting schools actually recommend that as the optimal approach. It's one of the factors, along with the desire to preserve spoilers that's the reason for why the major blockbusters only provide portions of the script that feature the particular character to actors in modern movies.

 

[Macgyver]

It's not uncommon for actors to only read the scenes they're in in a script. Indeed, some acting schools actually recommend that as the optimal approach. It's one of the factors, along with the desire to preserve spoilers that's the reason for why the major blockbusters only provide portions of the script that feature the particular character to actors in modern movies.

I do understand that. While modern blockbusters withhold pages from actors, I can only find articles about that occurring in ROTJ, due to David Prowse leaking information in TESB. https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/st...ve-a-wedge-between-darth-vader-and-lucasfilm/

Also, Here's an image of everyone allegedly reading the script to TESB, but since those actors had two or three scenes together in the film, perhaps they were only reading those specific pages and didn't look at the others.
http://allthestarwars.com/wp-conten...2_10153467888933530_1540320202968867116_n.jpg

It's not so much that Harrison ford in particular "didn't read every page" - but the Yoda line and the Luke line at the end slipped through every line of production without anyone asking anything in order for this "secret" is to be true, otherwise those scenes are out of place. Again, as an example Frank Oz says " Much anger in him, like his father." - that line is directionless without the Vader reveal since it alludes to Anger leading to the dark side, and Luke's Father being angry - no one involved in the production asked why that line is in the film? Surely the director told Frank Oz what direction to take when talking about Luke's father?

 

[Macgyver]

I'd also like to add two other items for people's consideration:

1) the novelization of the TESB movie was released on April 12th, 1980 - over a month before the film was released. So this means the writer knew as well, as did the publisher, and anyone else who read the book!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back_(novel)

Along with that, here is an article from starwars.com where someone was spoiled of the twist because he read the book! - https://www.starwars.com/news/return-of-the-star-wars-rumors

2) According to this interview, David Prowse says that the line he delivered was not "Obi-wan killed your father" but "come and join me and the Dark Side’." - if this is the case, why is luke's reaction to scream and say no? that's a serious overreaction I would think.
https://starwarsinterviews1.blogspot.com/2010/01/dave-prowse-interview.html

Again, I just don't believe that "no one knew" until the film's premiere. More and more cracks appear in this story when you look at it. I am sure it was intended to be a secret. I am sorry to attack Mr. Hamill, but I think he is misremembering events and providing some exaggeration to his story, which we all do in our lives.

 

[fireproof78]

Surely the director told Frank Oz what direction to take when talking about Luke's father?

Why?

Part of filmmaking is stitching the parts together. Actors don't need to know everything. Even James Earl Jones said about the line, "He's lying." So if this was some well known or plotted out idea then I would not expect the reaction.

if this is the case, why is luke's reaction to scream and say no? that's a serious overreaction I would think.

No. Yoda just told him that the Dark Side is quicker, easier more seductive. And once you start down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny, like it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. Luke knows how Vader became like that in some small measure, since he was consumed by the Dark Side.

ETA: Here is one of the earlier drafts by Leigh Brackett.

 

[Macgyver]

Yes, I linked to a searchable version Leigh Brackett script in my original post. It include's Annikan as a force ghost, Luke's sister, no one's hand getting chopped off, and Han does not freeze in carbonite. It has nothing to do with the director telling mark hamill that one specific line of the final script is changed the day before filming and "no one knowing".

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, I linked to a searchable version Leigh Brackett script in my original post. It include's Annikan as a force ghost, Luke's sister, no one's hand getting chopped off, and Han does not freeze in carbonite. It has nothing to do with the director telling mark hamill that one specific line of the final script is changed the day before filming and "no one knowing".

Since the twist came later on I don't understand the objection to no one not knowing. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until a rewrite of Return of the Jedi. Lucas lucked out but made it work retroactively, or retcon.

 

[David cgc]

Part of filmmaking is stitching the parts together. Actors don't need to know everything. Even James Earl Jones said about the line, "He's lying." So if this was some well known or plotted out idea then I would not expect the reaction.

Indeed, all the other lines that are explicit about "we are father and son" and all that are from James Earl Jones, Luke isn't responding to them in any way, it's just the suit menacing him. They didn't need to say anything on set aside from the key line, at that point, the conversation is over. Luke's delirious moaning about "Father, Ben, why didn't you tell me?" are so vague they'd work just as well with the decoy lines.

It's not a stage play, they don't go all through the movie in order with everyone involved seeing the whole thing beginning to end. That's part of the director's job, to keep track of what's going on and remind the actors that this scene is immediately before the scene you shot last week, so modulate accordingly. And the idea that random crew-members would protest about a bunch of random, go-nowhere world-building lines in the sequel to Star Wars and have to be let in on the secret is absurd. Have you seen the deleted scenes from Star Wars? And I don't buy the arguments that Luke's father being "angry" is only and obviously foreshadowing that he's Darth Vader. As has been said, they were two different people when Star Wars was made, and Obi-Wan, Beru, and Owen all said he was a hothead in various ways.

 

[Macgyver]

Since the twist came later on I don't understand the objection to no one not knowing. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until a rewrite of Return of the Jedi. Lucas lucked out but made it work retroactively, or retcon.

You and I might be talking about different things.

Mark Hamill claims that no one knew about "I am your father" except for Him, James Earl Jones, the director, and George Lucas.
We know this statement to be incorrect, because at the very least, Donald F. Glut had a novelization of the book released on April 12, 1980. Lawrence Kasdan, the co-writer of the film, also claims to have known this.

Mark hamill also claims that David Prowse said "Obi Wan killed your father"
David Prowse claims that he said "come and join me and the Dark Side"
one of these two men must be mistaken

Just on these two points alone, I don't believe that Luke's parentage was as big a secret as mark hamill lets on.

You have provided a script called "Star Wars sequel" - while it has many similarities with the the empire strikes back, it's not the script that the actors used to make the film.

The script that was used to film the movie doesn't appear to be available to the public. Mark Hamill has only claimed that the "I am your father" line was changed. The script in it's entirely doesn't make sense if only that one line is changed. those other scenes would also need to change.

As to your point about James Earl Jones - yes he says he read the dialog and believes that it was a lie. I am not disputing this at all. You can see the handwritten note used which says "I am your father" in this this interview - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...elieve-darth-vader-was-lukes-father-1066729/#!

All I am disputing is that Mark claims this was an amazing secret, but I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[fireproof78]

All I am disputing is that Mark claims this was an amazing secret, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Given the number people who ended up knowing and the number of people on the production it is an amazing secret.

 

[Ithekro]

Well no one told Carrie, so the rumor mill didn't get informed.

 

[fireproof78]

Well no one told Carrie, so the rumor mill didn't get informed.

I need to go pick up Rinzler's Making of Book and do some research.

 

[Crewman6]

This post is patently ridiculous.

Obviously the people working in post production who edited and mixed the movie knew.

The point is that during filming no one on set knew and there's nothing to suggest George/Mark/Irvin are lying.

There's plenty of reason why they would try to keep the circle of those in the know as small as possible and no reason whatsoever to doubt the story.

Sure, there's one other filmed instance where Luke says "father." Big whoop. Also easy to keep the number of people exposed to that scene to a minimum.

Yoda's line would make just as much sense if Vader wasn't Luke's father, too, so no reason to sneak around in that particular scene.

This is all deeply silly.

Sure, plenty of legends crop up around movies and get exaggerated over time, but there's just no reason not to take this at face value.

 

[Tuskin38]

Mark Hamill claims that no one knew about "I am your father" except for Him, James Earl Jones, the director, and George Lucas.
We know this statement to be incorrect, because at the very least, Donald F. Glut had a novelization of the book released on April 12, 1980. Lawrence Kasdan, the co-writer of the film, also claims to have known this.

Hamil was probably talking about at the time of filming the scene. Not all the way to release.