I Don't Get How the Cracks Work (SPOILERS up to 5x13!)

[Hermiod]

The first time we see anything actually fall in to a crack, it's the soldiers/clergymen.

Both the Doctor and Amy remember them, and I assumed this was because, as time travelers, they were now somehow immune to the effects of the cracks.

What I don't understand is what the cracks actually do. For example, a crack erases the first soldier. Did it completely erase that person from history or just wipe all memory of him ?

If the first option is true then this wouldn't have the effect of diminishing the number of soldiers since they presumably would have sent someone in his place.

If the second option is true then the cracks must act like the bubble universe in Star Trek: The Next Generation's "Remember Me" where everyone acted as if the continuously shrinking universe was normal, with only Dr. Crusher realising how ridiculous it was that the Enterprise had a crew of only herself and Picard and the ship's computer was able to describe the universe as a small area barely big enough to contain the Enterprise.

The cracks then eliminate the Weeping Angels. This is a paradox, since they are the reason for the Doctor's presence in the first place.

When the cracks cause the final elimination of - almost - the entire universe, nobody knows what stars are. It's extremely unlikely that our solar system would exist as it does now if it contained the only matter in the entire universe.

Finally, the cracks eliminate the Doctor himself while undoing all of the other "damage" they had done. Life on Earth appears to be perfectly normal. No sign of Dalek invasions, the Titanic crashing in to London or any of the other hundreds of threats to the planet the Doctor has diverted over the years.

So, what do the cracks actually do ? Do they genuinely wipe a person or object from history or do they just eliminate the memory of that person ? What was eliminated to prevent Amy (and presumably everyone else) from remembering the Dalek invasion or the giant Cyberman walking through Victorian London ?

 

[David cgc]

Well, a little bit of both. They wipe the person from history, but they leave anything else as close to untouched as possible, leading to a lot of nonsense rationalizations and occasional outright impossibilities, like Amy still existing and living in her big house alone even when her mother and father never existed. It's apparently similar to how things happen whenever anything changes in history in Doctor Who that isn't sufficient to break it outright, like how in "Father's Day," we saw two versions of Rose's childhood- one where her father died alone down the street, and one where he died in front of the church and was comforted by a stranger. Now, Jackie, afterward, remembered the new history (it's never made clear if Rose remembers only the new, the new and the old, or everything that happened in the episode), even though there are parts of it that clearly don't make sense. The car was a couple of blocks from where been actually driving, Pete was on his way to the Church, but was running away from it when he was hit, and there was a strange couple who was floating around the church and area nearby whom no one knew.

Or what was supposed to happen in "Turn Left," where the Time Beetle would change someone's life utterly, but twist and warp the world around them so it remained relatively unchanged.

 

[Hermiod]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

 

[Starkers]

It does make your head hurt doesn't it?

I don't think it's been implicitly said that the cracks have wiped all those alien invasions from history. And even if it had the implication surely is that resetting the universe with the Doctor on the other side of the crack restored everything except him. And then Amy remembering him brought him back.

At least that's my understanding. People do seem to have very differing views on this though, and maybe its a good thing, we're all having to think a bit.

I do think Moffat might have got a bit carried away with the whole timey-wimey thing though...

 

[Demonland]

Was Amy not remembering the Daleks when she should have explained?

On the point of the crack. When we first see it in TEH it aclotslot different to how it acted later in the Angels story. In TEH the eyeball race were literally on the other side and we were given the impression that they were the other part of space and time bought together with Amy's part yet her parents must have been sucked in at some point. Also Prisoner Zero was able to escape through it.

 

[David cgc]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

Depends. There doesn't seem to be a hard-and-fast rule. For instance, in the Doctor-free universe, Amy had still obsessed over him. Been sent to see psychiatrists. She even still had the dolls and drawings she made, including the ones that were probably made after the 2008 part of "Eleventh Hour."

It also depends on exactly what the crack ate to make it so Amy didn't remember the Daleks. Did it eat Davros's ship at the Nightmare Child, so Dalek Caan couldn't bring him back? Did it eat the lost moon of Poosh so the balance of the planets was different are Earth could no longer be used in the reality bomb? Did it eat the Crucible and fleet at the Medusa Cascade, and the saucer from VotD was the only one that was able to make a temporal shift and be insulated from its effects (the ship almost being eaten by the Crack would go a long way to explaining why it had a crew of three, when the Doctor quoted a crew of two thousand per saucer in "Bad Wolf")? Any of these would affect its effect.

Was Amy not remembering the Daleks when she should have explained?

Only implicitly. Presumably, she now does. She'd probably react like Rory did if it's pointed out that she forgot them. "How could I forget the Daleks? We spent three days hiding in the basement! Aunt Myrtle's ghost turned into a robot and three Daleks blew it up right in front of me a couple years before that!"

On the point of the crack. When we first see it in TEH it aclotslot different to how it acted later in the Angels story. In TEH the eyeball race were literally on the other side and we were given the impression that they were the other part of space and time bought together with Amy's part yet her parents must have been sucked in at some point. Also Prisoner Zero was able to escape through it.

The Doctor had to open the crack wide before Prisoner Zero could travel through it. The fish-people in "Venice" were able to travel through their cracks, as well. Maybe they have to be fiddled with somehow to be used for transport, and otherwise they just open up to the exploding TARDIS.

 

[Sci]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

I'm fairly certain that the Dalek Invasion of 2009 was un-retconned back into history by the closing of the Cracks.

Basically, everything the Cracks did have been undone, and all of Series Five took place in an alternate timeline that was erased from history the same way the events of "Turn Left" were erased from history.

 

[ParticleMan]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

I'm fairly certain that the Dalek Invasion of 2009 was un-retconned back into history by the closing of the Cracks.

Basically, everything the Cracks did have been undone, and all of Series Five took place in an alternate timeline that was erased from history the same way the events of "Turn Left" were erased from history.

\

This is where I am still unclear...are we really sure that all of Series 5 has been undone (other than the memories of it happening for the Doctor, Amy and Rory)? Wouldn't there at least have had to have been the Doctor's intervention in renewing, then stopping the Daleks in VotD? Otherwise Bracewell's ironsides would have been remembered in WWII history, right? Same idea with the Silurian invasion attempt and so forth...

Or am I missing something?

 

[Sci]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

I'm fairly certain that the Dalek Invasion of 2009 was un-retconned back into history by the closing of the Cracks.

Basically, everything the Cracks did have been undone, and all of Series Five took place in an alternate timeline that was erased from history the same way the events of "Turn Left" were erased from history.

\

This is where I am still unclear...are we really sure that all of Series 5 has been undone (other than the memories of it happening for the Doctor, Amy and Rory)? Wouldn't there at least have had to have been the Doctor's intervention in renewing, then stopping the Daleks in VotD? Otherwise Bracewell's ironsides would have been remembered in WWII history, right? Same idea with the Silurian invasion attempt and so forth...

Or am I missing something?

I'd presume that some of those events either never happened or happened in a different way, but that the consequences of those events remain (now without a cause).

It's like the photo of Amy and Rory that survived Rory's retcon out of history: An effect without a cause. An eraser still leaves marks on the page.

Another possibility is that in real history, the Doctor, Amy, and Rory did appear at those times that we saw them appear, but that the events that actually led to Amy and Rory joining the TARDIS did not happen. So, in other words, yes, the Doctor and Amy appeared in 1941 Britain to answer Winston Churchill's call as in "Victory of the Daleks," but Amy did not join the TARDIS on the evening of 25-26 June 2010 as in "The Eleventh Hour." Again, effects without causes.

 

[ParticleMan]

I'm fairly certain that the Dalek Invasion of 2009 was un-retconned back into history by the closing of the Cracks.

Basically, everything the Cracks did have been undone, and all of Series Five took place in an alternate timeline that was erased from history the same way the events of "Turn Left" were erased from history.

\

This is where I am still unclear...are we really sure that all of Series 5 has been undone (other than the memories of it happening for the Doctor, Amy and Rory)? Wouldn't there at least have had to have been the Doctor's intervention in renewing, then stopping the Daleks in VotD? Otherwise Bracewell's ironsides would have been remembered in WWII history, right? Same idea with the Silurian invasion attempt and so forth...

Or am I missing something?

I'd presume that some of those events either never happened or happened in a different way, but that the consequences of those events remain (now without a cause).

It's like the photo of Amy and Rory that survived Rory's retcon out of history: An effect without a cause. An eraser still leaves marks on the page.

Another possibility is that in real history, the Doctor, Amy, and Rory did appear at those times that we saw them appear, but that the events that actually led to Amy and Rory joining the TARDIS did not happen. So, in other words, yes, the Doctor and Amy appeared in 1941 Britain to answer Winston Churchill's call as in "Victory of the Daleks," but Amy did not join the TARDIS on the evening of 25-26 June 2010 as in "The Eleventh Hour." Again, effects without causes.

I see...that would be consistent with the idea that even if something is taken out of history, that the traces still remain. And now that I think about it, if all traces were removed, Amy would have ceased to exist too once her parents were originally erased...

 

[Icemizer]

Since the doctor didnt exist in history the Timelords sent another agent who succeded in his mission to destroy the Daleks before they were created. This means no Daleks ever, so any instance of them in history was eliminated including their interference in WWII.

 

[Sci]

Since the doctor didnt exist in history the Timelords sent another agent who succeded in his mission to destroy the Daleks before they were created. This means no Daleks ever, so any instance of them in history was eliminated including their interference in WWII.

But the Doctor did exist in history; Amy's remembering him allowed him to re-integrate into history. That's why His or Her Majesty knew to call him.

 

[ParticleMan]

Since the doctor didnt exist in history the Timelords sent another agent who succeded in his mission to destroy the Daleks before they were created. This means no Daleks ever, so any instance of them in history was eliminated including their interference in WWII.

But the Doctor did exist in history; Amy's remembering him allowed him to re-integrate into history. That's why His or Her Majesty knew to call him.

And how River's diary filled up with writing again...

 

[David cgc]

Basically, everything the Cracks did have been undone, and all of Series Five took place in an alternate timeline that was erased from history the same way the events of "Turn Left" were erased from history.

I think that Series Five did happen, as we saw it, but it also happened in another, similar "causeless" way. Sort of like how everyone, throughout history, thinks the Time Lords either have always been or just recently became extinct, no matter if they're in the 21st century or the 51st. It's a bit of a Schrodinger's cat thing. From an objective linear viewpoint, it would've just been that all the cracks opened... and the eventually closed themselves up again, vomiting up whatever they absorbed somewhere down the line right where they would've been if nothing happened, with no one the wiser unless they happened to be an active time-traveller who was around in the meantime and saw they were missing. I suppose a time-sensitive who was swallowed by the cracks would also remember it, so they would end up with a double set of memories, like Plastic Rory, or Rose probably did in "Father's Day."

 

[Cyke101]

^Well, an example of what I mean. Say during "The Stolen Earth" somebody somehow managed to kill one of the Daleks sent to put down any resistance against them on Earth and blew its armour to pieces.

At least according to Amy, nobody remembers these events, so what would happen to the debris ? Would there be pieces of an unknown alien metal lying around in a U.N.I.T. lab somewhere and nobody can remember where it came from ? Or would the debris disappear completely ?

I'm fairly certain that the Dalek Invasion of 2009 was un-retconned back into history by the closing of the Cracks.

I'm fairly certain about that too, but I was under the impression that only Amy was the one (as far as we saw) who forgot about the Dalek Invasion. I could be wrong, but didn't Eleven note that 21st century humans weren't so astonished anymore by giant events, when the Atraxi blotted out the sun? To me that's an indication of the Dalek Invasion still occurring in history.

However, I do remember the Doctor noting that the giant Cyber-King doesn't pop up in any sort of historical text, so in that regard it's not just Amy.

 

[David cgc]

Even if "The Stolen Earth" happened to everyone else Amy knew while time was cracking up, it wouldn't have anything to do with the cellphones. That part of TEH took place in 2008, the year before "The Stolen Earth."

 

[Cyke101]

Even if "The Stolen Earth" happened to everyone else Amy knew while time was cracking up, it wouldn't have anything to do with the cellphones. That part of TEH took place in 2008, the year before "The Stolen Earth."

ACK, you're right. I forgot that two years passed between the majority of Eleventh Hour and the final scene! Damn you, time travel!

 

[TedShatner10]

I agree that almost the entire season was a time loop similar to one in "Turn Left" except a lot less closed, with wide and lasting effects: there must've still been a Cyberking stomping through London and Daleks stealing planets, otherwise we wouldn't have the Daleks and Cybermen running multi-stella empires, only Cracks obscured the memory of them from Amy's perspective.

I get the impression that those who died in the episodes before the Universe was destroyed by the Cracks have stayed dead, Amy's parents, Rory, and the Doctor came back because Amy Pond had a direct and strong emotional attachment to them (not those expendable redshirts from "The Time of Angels"-"Flesh and Stone", the Saturnyne homeworld, etc). And Amy certainly didn't think about that stone Dalek that got killed by River.

 

[Saul]

How would she not remember the Daleks though? If they still existed?
Or because of the nature of time travel the ones we saw had escaped that happening?

 

[David cgc]

Something I was wondering about was how you'd have to blow up a TARDIS to get that effect. I mean, the Daleks probably destroyed plenty of TRARDISes during the war, and there wasn't any worry of side-effects when they attempted to blow up the Doctor's in "Parting of the Ways" and "Journey's End." Nor were there any problems when the TARDIS was apparently destroyed in "Father's Day" and "Rise of the Cybermen." The only time it seemed like destroying a TARDIS would cause massive environmental damage was "Time Crash."

So, did the Silence have a second TARDIS he smashed into the Doctor's? Maybe that was the deal with the ship in "The Lodger."