There seems to be a general understanding that the Reliant was originally "outgunned" by the Enterprise (before the surprise attack). But how could that be? It seems to have 12 regular phaser banks (like the Enterprise), 4 pulse lasers, and 4 photon torpedo tubes. Compared this to the Enterprise which has 2 visible photon torpedo tubes, and 12 phaser banks?
I always wondered....
- Thread starter gmbeatnik
- Start date
Well first (and yes, I had to look it up), Pulse Lasers aren't real weapons. They're used to simulate phasers during war games scenarios.
While I can't confirm the specs you mentioned (and maybe someone can clarify it with the proper sources), I would generally assume that as the larger vessel, Enterprise may also have more powerful phasers, shields, and a larger compliment of torpedoes.
Another possibility is that the Reliant was a new build rather than a refit, somewhat negating its disadvantages as the smaller vessel.
Why don't you do some more research on it and educate us, gmbeatnik.
While I can't confirm the specs you mentioned (and maybe someone can clarify it with the proper sources), I would generally assume that as the larger vessel, Enterprise may also have more powerful phasers, shields, and a larger compliment of torpedoes.
Another possibility is that the Reliant was a new build rather than a refit, somewhat negating its disadvantages as the smaller vessel.
Why don't you do some more research on it and educate us, gmbeatnik.
Same basic saucer as the Enterprise, 6 phaser turrets on top, 6 on the bottom in pairs inside the yellow rectangles.
Plus Reliant was shown firing phasers from those cylinders on the roll-bars, at least in the forward direction.
Reliant had 2 forward and 2 rear torp launchers, Enterprise appeared to only have 2 forward.
Maybe the Enterprise warp core was longer due to the secondary hull? That might provide more power, or at least a longer lasting supply, but you'd think "same size=same phasers".
Plus Reliant was shown firing phasers from those cylinders on the roll-bars, at least in the forward direction.
Reliant had 2 forward and 2 rear torp launchers, Enterprise appeared to only have 2 forward.
Maybe the Enterprise warp core was longer due to the secondary hull? That might provide more power, or at least a longer lasting supply, but you'd think "same size=same phasers".
The Enterprise could've been fitted with Type-IX Twin-Mount Phaser Banks and Mark-7 Photon Torpedo Launchers whilst the Reliant only had Type-V and Mark-3, older, less powerful models of the same tactical systems. It could explain why she only used her rollbar (pulse-) phasers in the battle as they were more powerful and therefore likely to do considerably more damage.
How so? The outgunning could have been there from the very get-go. Spock's analysis is quite neutral on that.
Khan's own analysis is that his ship after all the damage and subsequent repair is the more powerful one even when main power remains down, possibly suggesting an inherent advantage. Sure, Khan was fooled into thinking the Enterprise was in worse condition than she really was, but even then, the actual events of the battle suggest Khan was still right.
More exactly, each cylinder had two single phaser emitter pimples on yellow squares to the upper sides. The beams came from those, not from the forward spire (which only ever emitted solid white light) or the aft part.
Early audiences got that wrong and the fans thought that these guns were physically bigger than the main guns of the Enterprise, when in fact they were smaller (single vs. double). So they went for the idea that Khan exclusively fired these guns because they were the most powerful in his arsenal - an assumption that, while quite possibly true, was based on a false premise.
Like Bry said, we have little idea about the true "caliber" of the guns. It might be unrelated to the physical dimensions. Or then Trek firepower is unrelated to the guns altogether, being solely determined by what the power plant could currently pump out.
Timo Saloniemi
I could see a smaller ship having smaller "caliber" phasers, but the Reliant saucer is (roughly) the same size as the Enterprise's. Unless they purposely put less powerful phasers in for whatever reason.
So at least, those roll bar phasers give the Reliant either 2 or 4 (if they were on the rear as well) more than the Enterprise, going on visible emitters.
As far as the power pumped into the emitters, I imagine each type of phaser has a maximum capacity before overload depending on the number and type of coils (or whatever's in there).
So at least, those roll bar phasers give the Reliant either 2 or 4 (if they were on the rear as well) more than the Enterprise, going on visible emitters.
As far as the power pumped into the emitters, I imagine each type of phaser has a maximum capacity before overload depending on the number and type of coils (or whatever's in there).
Apart from the six times 2 phasers on each saucer, the Enterprise has four single emitters at the bottom of the secondary hull and two atop the shuttlebay. The Reliant supposedly, arguably, possibly has four in the roll bar pods, two on each. The mold features two of the pimples, on the blue ridge running along the side of the cylinder, and each is bracketed by yellow square markings. Not the exact same combination of shape and color as in the Enterprise guns, but each element alone is a match.
That leaves the Enterprise two emitters ahead in the game. Unless some other yellow features on the Reliant, such as at the aft bottom part of the torpedo pod or flanking the impulse engine bottom, turn out to be further emitters in closer analysis. Although where one would get such analysis now that the model has been redone over and over again and no higher-definition photos supposedly exist, I don't know.
The overload level must be higher than half the output of the reactor, though, or otherwise the ships would pump that output through more than two beams at once...
Timo Saloniemi
That leaves the Enterprise two emitters ahead in the game. Unless some other yellow features on the Reliant, such as at the aft bottom part of the torpedo pod or flanking the impulse engine bottom, turn out to be further emitters in closer analysis. Although where one would get such analysis now that the model has been redone over and over again and no higher-definition photos supposedly exist, I don't know.
The overload level must be higher than half the output of the reactor, though, or otherwise the ships would pump that output through more than two beams at once...
Timo Saloniemi
OK, I'm seeing a (probably) unofficial schematic here that shows "aft phaser banks" above the shuttlebay (some pictures show the pair of turrets you mention) and "ventral phaser banks" on the bottom of the secondary hull (not a lot of good pics of the bottom, but looks like 4 single turrets space out evenly).
So, the Enterprise is a heavy cruiser and Reliant is a science/supply ship. Do you think those different designations would really necessitate different "type" phasers, even though there seem to be comparable numbers of them?
So, the Enterprise is a heavy cruiser and Reliant is a science/supply ship. Do you think those different designations would really necessitate different "type" phasers, even though there seem to be comparable numbers of them?
Bernd Schneider's "Ex astris scientia" site has nifty detail photos of the models, but he isn't keen on hotlinking... Go have a look! The shuttlebay emitters are easily spotted, but the ventral quartet is where the motion control rod goes and probably is best observed in action shots.
How so? On screen, the Reliant was never called anything particular. Off screen, she has been anything from heavy frigate (the old naval expression for heavy cruiser) to light cruiser to science vessel. Given the lack of noticeable differences in equipment standards between the two ships in this movie, and the fact that ships as dissimilar as the Enterprise-refit and the Constellation class Hathaway have been designated "cruiser" on screen, I might prefer to consider the Reliant a heavy cruiser, too... Or perhaps just plain cruiser, to account for the slight difference in total volume.
Perhaps. After all, a battleship, a cruiser and a destroyer immediately after WWII might well have had the same number of guns in the same number of turrets...
But the fight in the movie was more or less even, so the only necessity there would be in explaining why the Reliant outguns the Enterprise just before the nebula fight. And gun caliber arguments probably aren't the best way to go.
Timo Saloniemi
How so? On screen, the Reliant was never called anything particular. Off screen, she has been anything from heavy frigate (the old naval expression for heavy cruiser) to light cruiser to science vessel. Given the lack of noticeable differences in equipment standards between the two ships in this movie, and the fact that ships as dissimilar as the Enterprise-refit and the Constellation class Hathaway have been designated "cruiser" on screen, I might prefer to consider the Reliant a heavy cruiser, too... Or perhaps just plain cruiser, to account for the slight difference in total volume.
Perhaps. After all, a battleship, a cruiser and a destroyer immediately after WWII might well have had the same number of guns in the same number of turrets...
But the fight in the movie was more or less even, so the only necessity there would be in explaining why the Reliant outguns the Enterprise just before the nebula fight. And gun caliber arguments probably aren't the best way to go.
Timo Saloniemi
I got the designation for the Miranda class from Memory Alpha. Ship designations aside, the saucers are the same size, so not quite the same as a naval destroyer vs battleship.
Of course a battleship was much larger, so had larger guns than a destroyer or cruiser.
Overall the Reliant is smaller due to the lack of a secondary hull. I suppose it would come down to how many different phaser types are manufactured and why they might decide to have smaller/lower powered ones in the Mirandas.
Unfortunately, they didn't start with the technobabble until TNG, so there wasn't as much info on phaser types for TOS ships.
It would be seriously unofficial, but FASA's ST-RPG had technical info on all the ships, including phaser types. I'm gonna look for that on Google.
ETA: Not so useful. FASA has most of the "Enterprise class cruisers" with 6 phasers in 3 banks and the "Reliant class cruiser" with 4 phasers in 2 banks.
Of course a battleship was much larger, so had larger guns than a destroyer or cruiser.
Overall the Reliant is smaller due to the lack of a secondary hull. I suppose it would come down to how many different phaser types are manufactured and why they might decide to have smaller/lower powered ones in the Mirandas.
Unfortunately, they didn't start with the technobabble until TNG, so there wasn't as much info on phaser types for TOS ships.
It would be seriously unofficial, but FASA's ST-RPG had technical info on all the ships, including phaser types. I'm gonna look for that on Google.
ETA: Not so useful. FASA has most of the "Enterprise class cruisers" with 6 phasers in 3 banks and the "Reliant class cruiser" with 4 phasers in 2 banks.
...Which appears to have gotten it from nowhere. Whether the Reliant, the Lantree and the second Saratoga were even of the same class is highly debatable, and in any case the role and designation of the ship seems to have changed with the years.
TOS invented the concept of "phaser type", though.
And FASA did a lot of the "looks identical, therefore is completely different" classification of starship components. Especially the guns and engines always had to be different for different ships, because mere difference in shape would have been irrelevant to the gaming mechanism.
Onscreen Trek had no interest in gaming-style determining of combat outcomes: battles were decided by plot twists. So both the "all guns are equal" and the "all guns are different" interpretations are possible, and equally irrelevant!
Timo Saloniemi
I'd have to agree with this. There's nothing suggesting that the Reliant is at any kind of disadvantage in terms of combat ability.
Whether the Reliant was or never was a ship that outgunned the Enterprise, was moot considering it appears Khan used one of his own untrained men to operate the controls.
You have a trained fighter pilot that can make tactical and offensive maneuvers and then you have a basic pilot that crop dusts. Which one would do the better job in a fight?
You have a trained fighter pilot that can make tactical and offensive maneuvers and then you have a basic pilot that crop dusts. Which one would do the better job in a fight?
I'll take the regular human beigns who can thinmk three dimentionally in space, know the extent and limitations on the ship, and have been in space battles before over super human beings, thanks.
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