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Humans to Mars, please sign this!

sto vo kor

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Here is a petition to Obama to consider the future direction of NASA to be one where manned space exploration is the main priority.

http://www.humanstomars.org/

There don't seem to many signitures yet but its only been going a few days. :)
 
Internet petitions can't get TV shows renewed. Why would they affect the space program?

Besides, I thought the Flexible Path really made the most sense of the options considered by the recent review.
 
/\ Where's your vision. Mars is where we need to go. (by the way, was there any mention of humans first going to Mars in Trek?)
 
We need to worry about reestablishing some other American vehicle to even get personnel into low Earth orbit before worrying about multi-year voyages to other planets. After the long delay between Apollo and the Space Transportation System (of which the "Shuttle" orbiter is a part), the delay after the Challenger incident and the delay after the Colombia accident this Constellation/Orion program was started entirely too late.
 
Ebeneezer,

Waste of money and resources is subjective. Considering how much money is being wasted on developing methods of waging war and mass surveillance, it would easily be possible to send a manned mission to mars on that budget.

Even in the 1960's it was expensive and by some considered to be a waste of money and resources to go to the moon... It was still done, it was good for mankind in general, as well as morale. We learned some things out of it, and other than being expensive, there was nothing unethical about it or illegal about it (I say this because in the past some scientific experiments have been done in which things were learned, but were completely unethical, morally reprehensible, if not outright illegal -- I have nothing against learning, but I have an issue with unethical behavior, unethical experimentation, and such of that nature)


Lindley,

You are correct in that petitions are rarely effective. Out of curiosity, what is the Flexible Path?


Zachary Smith,

There are quite a number of people I'd like to send to Mars, but I don't have the power to do that, and it's certainly not ethical to do so.


CuttingEdge100
 
/\ Where's your vision. Mars is where we need to go. (by the way, was there any mention of humans first going to Mars in Trek?)

*sigh* As Shatner said on SNL many years ago, "IT'S *JUST* A TV SHOW!" :rolleyes:

You people want to run while still trying to master crawling. Baby steps, people.

And I don't give two shits about budgets, waging war, and all that. It's been over 30 years since man has traveled beyond LEO which means we are, in no way, ready for a 7 month one-way journey. Spending a few thousand on probes along with developing technology will yield greater rewards than just "going for it because *whine* they did so in fantasy world".
 
I'm sorry but,
Spending a few thousand on probes
:guffaw:

You really have no concept of how much things cost do you?

Oh and I have always loved the argument about "throwing money away on the space program when it could be spent here on earth". Where do people think the money is actually spent for spacecraft? Right here on Earth, and in the U.S.. in fact, it's great for the U.S. economy due to rules enforcing domestic sources as opposed to spending money in other countries
 
I'm sorry but,
Spending a few thousand on probes
:guffaw:

You really have no concept of how much things cost do you?

Oh and I have always loved the argument about "throwing money away on the space program when it could be spent here on earth". Where do people think the money is actually spent for spacecraft? Right here on Earth, and in the U.S.. in fact, it's great for the U.S. economy due to rules enforcing domestic sources as opposed to spending money in other countries

Actually, I do know what it costs. It is far cheaper for us to send a probe every year or two than it would be to build a full scale mission and HOPE it works.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- Launch a full scale mission to Mars at the current point where we stand in technology and someone dies, or the mission fails, and you watch all hell break loose in this country. The public outcry, first over the loss of life, then over the amount of money that will never be recovered, and by THOSE WHO OPPOSE ANY TYPE OF SPENDING ON THE SPACE PROGRAM will drown out any rational analysis and discussion.

Metric mishap caused loss of NASA orbiter


There you go, Sport. $125M is a far easier amount to swallow than $30 - $40B -- and those estimates are from the late-1990's.

No Mars signal from Beagle probe
$62 million is a lot easier to swallow as well compared to $30 Billion.

What makes me laugh? People who think that man can run the equivalent of the Indy 500 with a Tin Lizzy.
 
the amount of money that will never be recovered

It's not like they're stuffing the spacecraft with greenbacks. The money stays right here in the economy regardless; and it's not like we'd get much of the equipment built with it back in usable shape either way.

A failed mission means a loss of science, and perhaps life if it's a manned mission, but there's no loss of money that's significantly different from a successful mission.

In fact, in a sense it might even be cheaper because you don't have to keep paying all those scientists to analyze the signals from the mission.
 
You people want to run while still trying to master crawling. Baby steps, people.

You'll never learn to run if you never try it, Ebeneezer. You'll spend eternity crawling. You see, you'll never acquire the necessary skills if, before you even try, you throw your hands up and give up.

You'll never develop interplanetary transport if you're content to just use some probes, using the same basic technology, investing little, if anything, in innovative propulsion methods, for example.
 
I'm sorry but,
Spending a few thousand on probes
:guffaw:

You really have no concept of how much things cost do you?

Oh and I have always loved the argument about "throwing money away on the space program when it could be spent here on earth". Where do people think the money is actually spent for spacecraft? Right here on Earth, and in the U.S.. in fact, it's great for the U.S. economy due to rules enforcing domestic sources as opposed to spending money in other countries

Actually, I do know what it costs. It is far cheaper for us to send a probe every year or two than it would be to build a full scale mission and HOPE it works.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- Launch a full scale mission to Mars at the current point where we stand in technology and someone dies, or the mission fails, and you watch all hell break loose in this country. The public outcry, first over the loss of life, then over the amount of money that will never be recovered, and by THOSE WHO OPPOSE ANY TYPE OF SPENDING ON THE SPACE PROGRAM will drown out any rational analysis and discussion.

Metric mishap caused loss of NASA orbiter


There you go, Sport. $125M is a far easier amount to swallow than $30 - $40B -- and those estimates are from the late-1990's.

No Mars signal from Beagle probe
$62 million is a lot easier to swallow as well compared to $30 Billion.

What makes me laugh? People who think that man can run the equivalent of the Indy 500 with a Tin Lizzy.

A) NO NEED TO YELL. It doesn't help your case as much as it insults everyone.

B) Yep, familiar with both of those missions and their failures. I was laughing at you thinking they cost thousands, not millions. By the way, Beagle was a british mission, not U.S., no loss for us.

C) As Lindley and I have pointed out repeatedly, where do you think that money gets spent? Whether the mission fails or succeeds it helps the economy.

D) I agree with you. Going to Mars half-cocked is a bad idea. That doesn't mean you should be afraid to take any risks. There was no real outcry by the public to shutdown NASA after Challenger or Columbia. The general public is aware that some things involve risk.

To be honest, I think as long as the space program avoids endangering the general public there will not be any outcry to "take all their money away" based on safety.
 
the amount of money that will never be recovered

It's not like they're stuffing the spacecraft with greenbacks. The money stays right here in the economy regardless; and it's not like we'd get much of the equipment built with it back in usable shape either way.

A failed mission means a loss of science, and perhaps life if it's a manned mission, but there's no loss of money that's significantly different from a successful mission.

In fact, in a sense it might even be cheaper because you don't have to keep paying all those scientists to analyze the signals from the mission.

You people want to run while still trying to master crawling. Baby steps, people.

You'll never learn to run if you never try it, Ebeneezer. You'll spend eternity crawling. You see, you'll never acquire the necessary skills if, before you even try, you throw your hands up and give up.

You'll never develop interplanetary transport if you're content to just use some probes, using the same basic technology, investing little, if anything, in innovative propulsion methods, for example.

I guess it's lost on the two of you, so I have to draw you pictures:

The US space program didn't just start one day and head to the moon. First, we had to build rockets. Once that hurdle was covered, we then attached some funny little object on it called an artificial satellite. The satellite had some instruments on it that transmitted telemetry and other data back to earth, which was then further analyzed. After some more work, we started sending dogs and monkeys, not people into space to orbit the earth. Would a man have volunteered to go? I'm certain a few would have; however, our forefathers of the space program had the wisdom to proceed with caution. Once the animals experiments provided enough data, we then launched a man into space. Did he go straight to the moon? Nope. Instead, he orbited the earth, first for a few hours at a time which was incrementally extended into days. Once that was accomplished did we then push forward to land men on the moon and return them home. We also continued with the Skylab program to start practicing for longevity in space.

Then came the Shuttle program. It was heralded as a major leap in the Space program, but instead did not deliver what was promised (hundreds of launches, etc). The shuttle was still using mainframe computers, which are extremely heavy and bulky up until the early 1990's. Hell, it almost took an employee rebellion in NASA's younger engineers to get off of mainframe computers and to a client-server style network in the late-1990's.

Anyway, I'm not saying all we need to do is crawl. Look at what's going on in NASA right now. There are engineers with their own forum who are claiming that NASA is going about building the next stage in space faring vehicles all wrong. There is disagreement (on a large scale) how to build and equip a mission to Mars.

We've lost some know-how due to the last 30 years being vested in the shuttle program. We have to depend on the Russians to get supplies to the Space Station and are basically grounded once the shuttle fleet stops.

Testing new propulsion systems, is not something to be performed on such an ambitious voyage. This is what the crawl, walk, run phase is. No one can give any good reasons *WHY* we have to go to Mars beyond, "<snivel> THEY DID IT ON STAR TREK!!!" Real life doesn't work like that and I would think that a (reasonable) person would understand that.

I think what gets lost is that people do not remember how overly-optimistic scientists/mankind became during the nuclear age. Need I remind you that in the 1950's testimony before Congress was that within a few years, nuclear energy would give us electricity "too cheap to meter"? There were all of these bold, daring predictions what society and life in general would be like 10, 20, and 50 years down the road. I hate to break it to you, but very few, if any, panned out.

So yes, I'm going to state that we're better off buying cheap probes to gather data while efforts are underway to analyze that data. Look at the twin Mars rovers. Their life expectancy was 90-days, yet they're still operating. I know there are risks; however, I know from my observations of the Court of Public Opinion that efforts to pump BILLIONS of dollars into such a massive efforts will be greatly criticized. If the mission fails, get ready for the backlash. If the mission fails and people die, all hell *will* break loose.

I view the Space Program as an investment since many technologies have been developed because of it and as a result of it; however, where we are right now, a manned Mars mission isn't going to provide much, if any, ROI.

What's wrong with exercising patience? It's not like the planet is going anywhere.
 
You're quite right and I agree with all that, but none of it contradicts what I said, so I'm not sure why you addressed it to me.
 
Just to throw caution to the wind in this discussion... In my experience with people, the greatest impediment to progress is usually a lack of confidence.

Step boldly into the unknown, and you might get a lot further than you thought possible.
 
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