Humans are the worst?

[RobertScorpio]

In another thread I asked people to tell me what animal is the worst, most dangerous, in the star trek universe. And several people chosen, ta da, Humans!!!...hmmmmmm...let us examine that a bit more shall we..

Humans, and I mean earth humans, and I think so do they, do have a bad record. But compared to the fictional Klingons-Jem'Hedar and the Borg, are we really that bad? I mean, at the best, we were slaughtering each other until the mid 21st century, or so, if Star Trek has it right. Yes, Kodos did this or that...but come on folks. The Borg have assimilated MILLIONS. The Jem-Hedar killed 800 million Cardassians in about a two day period and yet we are, Earth, are the most barbaric and violent animal in space?

From what I know of the Klingon methods, and Romulan, and heck, the Cardassians, we may have had our terrible moments. But when compared to the rest of the 'solids', I think humanity, Earth humanity, we, along with the Vulcans, brought more good to the universe than bad.

So...no. In defense of humanity, and it played out in TREK's future, we are not nearly as bad as some of you make us out to be...

Robert Scorpio
Defender of EARTH!!!

 

[greenmystik]

It seems like they touched a nerve over in that thread. I believe most (and I'm not speaking for everyone) were saying humans in jest. There may be some that were serious but I think for the most part everybody just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

Now, to be devils advocate. The Jem-Hedar are genetically engineered to be ruthless killers, and to an extent so are the Borg. Human kind (Mankind?) has been doing the same thing of our own free will.

 

[RobertScorpio]

It seems like they touched a nerve over in that thread. I believe most (and I'm not speaking for everyone) were saying humans in jest. There may be some that were serious but I think for the most part everybody just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

Now, to be devils advocate. The Jem-Hedar are genetically engineered to be ruthless killers, and to an extent so are the Borg. Human kind (Mankind?) has been doing the same thing of our own free will.

You keep blurring NOW with the FUTURE. I am speaking of Star Trek's future. In the 24th century, comparing humanity to the rest of the 'solids', we are not, by far, the worst. Whether or not the Jem-Hedar are slaves isn't the point. Humans, from the 21st century onward, did not do anything really negatively, in a galactic sense. The Klingons did. The Romulans, it would appear, still do. The Borg do. And to excuse the Borg because it is 'what they do?" Doesn't change the fact that I think the Borg are a far more dangerious 'animal' than Earth-humans.

Rob

 

[greenmystik]

Ok, I was blurring a bit. So the humans of the 24th century. From what we've seen and read yes they are not as bad as most other species. But we do have our little nuggets do we not. Now I don't want to make this about what percentage of what species is the worst so I'll just say that there are far worse out there than us...which I believe I stated in my third sentence. OOPS.

 

[chancellorjake]

You keep blurring NOW with the FUTURE. I am speaking of Star Trek's future. In the 24th century, comparing humanity to the rest of the 'solids', we are not, by far, the worst.

Have you forgotten Turkana IV? All the benefits of the Federation and the colony still collapsed into anarchy, rape gangs, and genocide. Even in the 24th Century, humans are capable of many atrocities, if they surrender to their base instincts.

 

[RobertScorpio]

You keep blurring NOW with the FUTURE. I am speaking of Star Trek's future. In the 24th century, comparing humanity to the rest of the 'solids', we are not, by far, the worst.

Have you forgotten Turkana IV? All the benefits of the Federation and the colony still collapsed into anarchy, rape gangs, and genocide. Even in the 24th Century, humans are capable of many atrocities, if they surrender to their base instincts.

I am not denying humans, from Earth, can be bad. But worse that the Cardassians? Ask the Bajorans. Worse than the Jem-Hedar/Breen? Ask the Cardassians. Earth-humans are NO worse than the other solids, or Odo would not have been able to convince the Founder to fold. Earth and Vulcans are touted as the two most important founding members of the Federation. And, on my scorecard, the Federation, with all of its problems, is a far ideal society than the one offered in 23rd century Klingon, or 24th century Romulans. If not, then why don't we just let the Romulans take us over?

Rob

 

[Sector 7]

I am not denying humans, from Earth, can be bad. But worse that the Cardassians? Ask the Bajorans. Worse than the Jem-Hedar/Breen? Ask the Cardassians.

...worse than the human Nazi's? Ask the Jews. Worse than the Islamic Jihad? Ask the victims of 9/11. Worse than the Chinese government? Ask the Tibetans and victims of Tiananmen Square...
Therefore, I believe a case could be made for the opposite opinion.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I am not denying humans, from Earth, can be bad. But worse that the Cardassians? Ask the Bajorans. Worse than the Jem-Hedar/Breen? Ask the Cardassians.

...worse than the human Nazi's? Ask the Jews. Worse than the Islamic Jihad? Ask the victims of 9/11. Worse than the Chinese government? Ask the Tibetans and victims of Tiananmen Square...
Therefore, I believe a case could be made for the opposite opinion.

We are looking at this from a STAR TREK future perspective. So yes, six million Jews, 40 million Russians (you forgot them) 911, Islamic Jihad...add them all up, and that is over a hundred years by the way, then it doesn't come close 800 million dead in a two day span on Cardassia. Could you imagine if 800 million people suddenly died in the next two days on Earth because they were slaughtered? So yes, in the REALITY we called, well, reality, sure man kind, as of 2008, has been pretty brutal. But play timeline in Trek's fictional future, all the way up to the events at the closing of the Dominion war, the brutal acts here on Earth don't even measure up. Not nearly.

So...no...if you are looking at it from a STAR TREK future, if Star Trek did happen, then no...Humans do not nearly come close to what the Jem-Hedar/Breen did...

Robert

 

[hokstein]

And, on my scorecard, the Federation, with all of its problems, is a far ideal society than the one offered in 23rd century Klingon, or 24th century Romulans. If not, then why don't we just let the Romulans take us over?

Rob

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. By this same argument, Nazi Germany was a "far ideal society" than the Allies, since they didn't "just let the Allies take them over". Saddam's Iraq and the Taliban's Afghanistan were "far ideal societies" than the US, and so on. The Federation fighting for its own survival has nothing to do with how ideal it is.

 

[RobertScorpio]

And, on my scorecard, the Federation, with all of its problems, is a far ideal society than the one offered in 23rd century Klingon, or 24th century Romulans. If not, then why don't we just let the Romulans take us over?

Rob

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. By this same argument, Nazi Germany was a "far ideal society" than the Allies, since they didn't "just let the Allies take them over". Saddam's Iraq and the Taliban's Afghanistan were "far ideal societies" than the US, and so on. The Federation fighting for its own survival has nothing to do with how ideal it is.

Yes it does. You are being far to 'elitist' here. The Federation, as depicted in the shows and movies, are the good guys. It doesn't have to be made more complicated than that. From TROUBLES WITH TRIBBLES to BALANCE OF TERROR to SACRAFICE OF ANGELS, the Federation is doing this for a good cause.

Rob

Rob

 

[Dr_Daystrom]

I am not denying humans, from Earth, can be bad. But worse that the Cardassians? Ask the Bajorans. Worse than the Jem-Hedar/Breen? Ask the Cardassians.

...worse than the human Nazi's? Ask the Jews. Worse than the Islamic Jihad? Ask the victims of 9/11. Worse than the Chinese government? Ask the Tibetans and victims of Tiananmen Square...
Therefore, I believe a case could be made for the opposite opinion.

We are looking at this from a STAR TREK future perspective. So yes, six million Jews, 40 million Russians (you forgot them) 911, Islamic Jihad...add them all up, and that is over a hundred years by the way, then it doesn't come close 800 million dead in a two day span on Cardassia. Could you imagine if 800 million people suddenly died in the next two days on Earth because they were slaughtered? So yes, in the REALITY we called, well, reality, sure man kind, as of 2008, has been pretty brutal. But play timeline in Trek's fictional future, all the way up to the events at the closing of the Dominion war, the brutal acts here on Earth don't even measure up. Not nearly.

So...no...if you are looking at it from a STAR TREK future, if Star Trek did happen, then no...Humans do not nearly come close to what the Jem-Hedar/Breen did...

Robert

Humans, real humans, are worse because of that fact; they're real.

 

[greenmystik]

Well we all know we're real. So to take that out of the equation and go back to the OP's question. Are 24th century humans worse than other races portrayed in Trek?

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well we all know we're real. So to take that out of the equation and go back to the OP's question. Are 24th century humans worse than other races portrayed in Trek?

Exactly...this question is exactly that. Are 24th century humans, from Earth, the scurge of death some think they are? And even if you enter Earth's past? No. Not by far. Have Earth humans slaughtered 800 million in a two day period? If so, I'd like to know the episode/movie that says we did. Did Kodos let 5000 humans die on a earth colony to ration food and supplies? Sure. But if I weigh 5000 in one hand, and 800 million cardassians in the other, I have to say that the Breen/Jem-hedar were far more savage. Unless, of course, Earthlings don't consider the Cardassians equal in value.

As I said earlier; I don't think Odo could have gotten the founder to give up with out assuring her that the Federation, yes the FEDERATION, would not allow the Romulans/Klingons/Cardassians to get retribution. So, if you think about it, he is really saying, he is trusting Earth/Vulcan to carry out his promise.

Rob


Rob

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I am not denying humans, from Earth, can be bad. But worse that the Cardassians? Ask the Bajorans. Worse than the Jem-Hedar/Breen? Ask the Cardassians.

...worse than the human Nazi's? Ask the Jews. Worse than the Islamic Jihad? Ask the victims of 9/11. Worse than the Chinese government? Ask the Tibetans and victims of Tiananmen Square...
Therefore, I believe a case could be made for the opposite opinion.

You're dragging in the real world. We're talking humans on Star Trek.

On Star Trek, there is no way anyone can argue that humans have been portrayed as the worst beings. Not with Romulans, Klingons, the Borg, the Dominion and worst of all, the Betazoids and Ferengi committing atrocities right and left (I still haven't gotten over Luxwana and those horrible "comedies" about Quark's family.)

Just look how Planets of the Week are portrayed on Trek, notably TNG and VOY. Invariably they are inhabited by wrongheaded idiot aliens who are frakking everything up and need a good, stern lecture courtesy of Picard or Janeway. Even DS9 got into the act every so often, remember Armegeddon Game and Paradise?

The moral of the story, according to Star Trek: the universe would be a better place if only humans were running it.

 

[Triskelion]

^ I still maintain that those worlds represented our own wrong ideas to be contrasted with our possible ideals. Trek is a story, not a polemic.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^ I still maintain that those worlds represented our own wrong ideas to be contrasted with our possible ideals. Trek is a story, not a polemic.

But, even then, humanity is not out there slaughtering 800 million living beings in two days. The message is, of humanity, is that we 'grew' up, to some degree, after we met the Vulcans and then, later, founded the Federation with them.

Rob

 

[ToddPence]

Spock's jabs against humans often demonstrate a mind-boggling hypocrisy. "I am frequently appalled by the low regard you Earth men have for human life" . . . this from a guy whose planet holds combats to the death as part of a mating ritual?

 

[Cyke101]

I think Trek's attitude is that humanity as a whole isn't bad, but there are certainly a few bad apples who can screw it up for the rest of us. Ie, Khan, Dr. Soren, Col. West and Admiral Cartwright, Admiral Leyton, Dr. Soong, etc. We don't get many alien supervillains, and we get even fewer who work on such frighteningly huge scales as these guys.

 

[Anwar]

Soran wasn't human, he was an El-Aurian.

 

[Michael]

^ Yeah, and Soren was actually a J'naii.