• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

How Powerful is Cardassia?

jmampilly

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Numerous episodes in both TNG and DS9 give us insight into the Cardassian Union. However, the series seem to give us conflicting information on the power of the Cardassians. TNG gives us the image of a second-rate power that managed to somehow do well in a war against the Federation, yet DS9 has Section 31 Agent Sloan compare Cardassia to the other major powers in the Alpha Quadrant. Is the Cardassian Union a major power, considered to be on par with the Romulans, Klingons and the Federation, or is it a smaller power that simply extends itself beyond what would be expected from a state of its size?
 
Probably more second string to the Federation, Klingons and Romulans but due to all the resources they pour into their military they can essentially hold their own against Starfleet anyway.

By DS9 we'd seen them strengthened through their alliance with the Dominion which temporarily made them one of the Alpha Quadrant's top dogs.
 
Well in TNG they're introduced as a former enemy they fought for years to a bloody stalemate. So that assumes that either they're on par with the Federation at least militarily, or that the Federation was staying on the defensive due to their utopian values and/or not putting their full effort into the war for fear of disrupting civilian life. Running into late TNG early DS9, they Federation considers maintaining the peace treaty, which they basically routinely violate in spirit if not in paper, more important than the well being of their own colonists on the border.

In mid DS9, the Klingons bring them down to their knees with virtually know effort. Worf specifically said they committed a third of their military to the invasion. In the space of a few episodes they couldn't effectively resist without Federation intervention, nor maintain their economy without Federation help and pretty much had to turn a blind eye to the Maquis. So that basically argues the Federation just wasn't bringing their A game during the Border wars with Cardassia. Given how determined Jaryesh Inyo was not to upset the civilian populace during Homefront/Paradise Lost, it kinda makes sense a similar attitude was employed towards that war.

It was only once they joined the Dominion that they really became a power to be reckoned with in some ways, and even then they were only an extension of the Dominion. So I'd say they were a second rate power to begin with, and a 3rd rate power by the end of DS9. If I had to compare them to an Earth Country I'd say Italy during the world wars. They're a modern nation with a sizable population, but lacking the resources to be more than a regional power and coming up short every time they bump up against the greater powers.
 
That's what I thought, but why does Sloan say "Cardassian will be rebuilding after the Dominion leaves, the Klingons won't pose a threat to anyone for the next 10 years, so that leaves two powers to vie for control," if Cardassian isn't a major power? It seems like conflicting information here.
 
Well we don't know much about the Federation-Cardassian War. Except that it was from circa 2347-2267.

It might have been more of a series of border skirmishes rather than a full blown war.

Perhaps in the region the Cardassian Union is towards the top end of tier 2 powers, able to hold their own against the likes of the UFP, RSE, KE when those powers are on more of peace time footing. If those powers ramped up to a full war footing the Cardassians would be on the back foot.
 
I think that they are a relatively small empire, but they have a competent military (or at least individual ship captains). The Galor seems to be on the same level as an Excelsior-class ship, or maybe an Ambassador, so, with their militaristic emphasis and training, they would do decently in the types of battles Starfleet seems to engage in, at least at that point in history - one-on-one slug-fests.

The one area the Cardassians seem to really excel in is Intelligence. That could give them more even footing against Starfleet in a relatively small-scale conflict, especially one that might not be so popular with the brass and politicians.
 
More fleshing out of the Cardassian Wars would have indeed be interesting.

Given however, how suspicious the Enterprise crew were of Gul Macet, and Picard's unpleasant experience at he hands of Gul Madred, I would consider it highly likely that the Cardassians fought the war in an extremely 'dirty' manner, and taking advantage of the Federation's utopian ideals restricting using dirty tactics on a large scale (S31 excepted). Hence allowing them to punch above their weight.

Had the Federation had the political will to lose a sigificant number of ships (and personel) and cause mass civilian casualties on the Cardassians, a direct assult on Cardassia would probably have been feasible. However, that kind of potentially genocidal operation would have been unpalatable to the Federation. As we know however, the Klingons and Romulans are not so forgiving.
 
On that line of thought, let's consider the following:

Well in TNG they're introduced as a former enemy they fought for years to a bloody stalemate.

...While simultaneously making it clear that their weapons can't hurt Starfleet ships of the Galaxy generation at all. One might conclude that the threat they present is that of classic "asymmetric warfare" where superior Starfleet firepower would guarantee UFP triumph but political reality prevents it from being applied.

Note that despite there being a "stalemate" in the sense that UFP and Cardassia struggle to stabilize a common border, it seems that all Cardassian conquests outside a pitiful half a dozen lightyears from their homeworld (that is, outside Bajor) were stripped away by Starfleet advances, leaving all space around Cardassia and Bajor "neutral" (albeit with Cardassian sympathies) at the start of DS9. This leads me to speculate that Cardassia was thoroughly beaten until the time came to consider "invasion of Japanese mainland" - and Starfleet decided not do to that, knowing that Cardassians would fight to their deaths. And having thus exposed their softness, the Feds had no option but to conclude the war by negotiating from a seeming point of weakness.

Running into late TNG early DS9, they Federation considers maintaining the peace treaty, which they basically routinely violate in spirit if not in paper, more important than the well being of their own colonists on the border.

In line with the above, this might be another sign of Cardassian weakness: the Federation dare not start another war with them, because that would lead to total annihilation of the Union, and the Federation doesn't want that. Apart from altruistic reasons, the Cardassians might e.g. be too valuable as buffers against the Breen, a shared enemy.

In mid DS9, the Klingons bring them down to their knees with virtually now effort.

But interestingly, while they seem to make good progress in wake of a surprise attack, they are fought to a standstill once the Cardassians get a warning. Surely the Klingons would have pressed on at this point, despite their diplomatic problems with the Federation, and would have made the UFP Council face the fact of them being in control of the Union now - but apparently Cardassian military force alone stopped them from achieving this no doubt desperately pursued outcome.

This might tell us more about the mechanics of space warfare in Trek than about the relative sizes of Klingon and Cardassian starfleets. DS9 explicitly shows us what TNG only hinted at, and TOS indirectly implied: thousands of starships will have a hard time conquering a single planet if said planet has orbital fortifications in place. In other words, defense is cheap and effective, while offense is expensive and often futile.

This would lead to Cardassia being an offensive threat only to primitive cultures, and indeed it is famous for subduing such - but also just powerful enough to pass the defensive power threshold needed for stopping superpowers.

It was only once they joined the Dominion that they really became a power to be reckoned with in some ways, and even then they were only an extension of the Dominion.

Significantly, their weapons also appeared to receive a crucial upgrade at that point. Having proceeded from the wimpy pink beams of TNG to the only slightly more powerful thin, swirly amber ones in early DS9, they now sported the thick, bright golden beams that cut Federation ships with the same ease Starfleet's similar-looking beams cut Cardassian ships.

Sloan was talking about a cold war with the Romulans.

And no doubt lying his eyes and ears full, as usual. But possibly in the narrower context of who controls the now strategically crucial wormhole region - because in that game, Cardassia would definitely have to be counted in even if it were a featherweight.

Well we don't know much about the Federation-Cardassian War. Except that it was from circa 2347-2367.

And interestingly, according to "The Wounded", the Setlik III incident of 2347 seemed to end in a Cardassian apology - which suggests that it did not represent part of the war as such, but only an early lead-in event that was followed by more years of waiting.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Don't Cardassian space stations fit into the equation? It seems that controlling and defending conquered territory was a preoccupation of the Cardassian military, leading to the construction of impressive space stations, one of which would be known as DS9. It may have been foolish in the long run to commit themselves to such structures, but it was always suggested that the station gave the power and possessed it a strategic advantage in its system.
 
Good points, but warranting some further consideration.

Terok Nor would have given Cardassians good control over planet Bajor, but it's difficult to see how it would have helped them defend Bajor against, say, Breen or Klingon invasion. The station was on low orbit; the Breen could simply have landed their invasion armies on the other side of the planet! Plus, when our heroes needed to establish control over the wormhole, relatively nearby in the same star system, they could not do it from Terok Nor. They had to move the station by quite exceptional means...

A more extensive system of fortifications, such as the one over Chin'toka, would give the Union complete control of a system or at least its worthwhile point targets. But it may be that Bajor was too close to Cardassia to warrant a defense system against invaders from outside: anybody threatening Bajor would already be so deep within the Cardassian Union that the outer border defenses would have stopped them. Or if not, all would be lost anyway, and defending of Bajor would not be a concern.

Chin'toka may have been another Bajor-style "crown jewel" planet for the Union, which is why they so fiercely defended it and why Sisko and pals thought that it would be the gateway to ultimate victory. And like Bajor, it may have been so close to the Union core that its defenses were only built just before the Starfleet-Klingon invasion as shown, rather than back in the time of the Cardassian Wars.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Good points, but warranting some further consideration.

Terok Nor would have given Cardassians good control over planet Bajor, but it's difficult to see how it would have helped them defend Bajor against, say, Breen or Klingon invasion. The station was on low orbit; the Breen could simply have landed their invasion armies on the other side of the planet! Plus, when our heroes needed to establish control over the wormhole, relatively nearby in the same star system, they could not do it from Terok Nor. They had to move the station by quite exceptional means...

A more extensive system of fortifications, such as the one over Chin'toka, would give the Union complete control of a system or at least its worthwhile point targets. But it may be that Bajor was too close to Cardassia to warrant a defense system against invaders from outside: anybody threatening Bajor would already be so deep within the Cardassian Union that the outer border defenses would have stopped them. Or if not, all would be lost anyway, and defending of Bajor would not be a concern.

Chin'toka may have been another Bajor-style "crown jewel" planet for the Union, which is why they so fiercely defended it and why Sisko and pals thought that it would be the gateway to ultimate victory. And like Bajor, it may have been so close to the Union core that its defenses were only built just before the Starfleet-Klingon invasion as shown, rather than back in the time of the Cardassian Wars.

Timo Saloniemi
I agree that on it's own, the station might not protect a system. However, it was shown to do very well against various fleets on its own, capable of taking on several targets at once. Paired with a light and versatile fleet it might have played a decisive tactical role.

On the other hand, it might be evidence that Cardassian military priorities were off. Formidable on its own, it was built more for prestige and may have contributed less to strategic defense than thought. Cardassia may have been strong but foolish, too concerned with the emblems of power than its tools.
 
It's pretty clear the Cardassian Empire was smaller than the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, but they might have had the benefit of having to fight on only one front whereas the Federation has to defend itself on multiple fronts.
 
I really like the Cardassians. I think they were a more balanced race than the Klingons and Romulans, who were basically one-hat races.

But they are obviously weaker than those and the UFP.
 
The one thing that's less satisfactory about the setup is that they are merely weaker, not clearly displaced on any other coordinate axis.

That is, they aren't noticeably more or less advanced technologically; they aren't noticeably more or less fanatical or clever or proud; they aren't more or less spread out in space; they aren't more or less reliant on trade with others or supply from mining outposts or whatnot; they aren't noticeably longer or shorter lived; etc.

Sure, there are hints that Dukat may in fact be quite old, but this isn't translated into military grudges that span human generations. There are mentions that Cardassia conquers in order not to starve, but this doesn't translate into supply line cutting strategies (they have to set up a wholly separate excuse for that in "Rules of Engagement"). it's likely that they aren't as widely spread as the UFP is, but this is not reflected in travel time issues. And so forth.

Sure, we may assume that these other differences exist, and that they have an impact, but the fact that the impact wasn't written in to the stories more clearly is somewhat disappointing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Cardassia had to be at least remotely powerful, as it was able to extend itself beyond its core territory and occupy an outlying system.
 
Last edited:
Cardassia had to be at least remotely powerful, as it was able to extend itself beyond its core territory and occupy an outlying system.

Portugal had to be at least remotely powerful as it was able to extend itself beyond it's core territory and occupy outlying colonies.
 
...We never learned if that system was capable of offering any opposition.

Sure, eventually Bajorans came to possess warp-capable vessels and infantry weaponry of general interstellar standard, but for all we know, this was courtesy of the Cardassian occupation - previously, Bajorans might only have had bows and arrows (plus lightsail spacecraft).

It is of course at least equally possible that Bajorans had warp-capable vessels and advanced weaponry thousands of years before Cardassians did; the Bajoran culture is that ancient, according to "Ensign Ro". But the very fact that Bajor didn't use such technology to conquer surrounding space in those past millennia would in turn suggest that they would be easy prey anyway: anybody pacifist enough to give up an opportunity to such conquest would be unlikely to offer proper resistance to Cardassians!

Being able to take over a planet that has no defensive alliances is probably not a big feat in general: any planet technologically advanced enough to be capable of offering resistance will already have realized that alliances are vitally important.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I wonder how many other civilisations live within Cardassian, Klingon or Romulan territories.
 
I wonder how many other civilisations live within Cardassian, Klingon or Romulan territories.

That is something I have long wanted to see aswell, do these empires mainly consist of colonies spawning from the main worlds, or do they actually conquer other species with any frequency.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top