How have your opinions changed over time?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JamesRye, Feb 23, 2022.

  1. JamesRye

    JamesRye Commander Red Shirt

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    I recently went through the attic and chucked out a lot of stuff, including essays and stuff from school/university. Haven't looked at any of that in over 20 years.

    Scrawled on a page of A4 was a list of Star Trek movies. I think this was circa 1998/1999 as Insurrection had just come out. Anyway, the rankings were as follows (complete with brief note):

    Star Trek VI: TUC - perfection
    Star Trek: First Contact - TNG cements itself as a cinematic franchise
    Star Trek II: TWOK - class
    Star Trek IV: TVH - great fun
    Star Trek III: TSFS - like an old episode
    Star Trek: Insurrection - its OK
    Star Trek V: TFF - needed more money
    Star Trek: Generations - A terrible disappointment
    Star Trek: TMP - BORING!

    It's funny how your opinions on a movie can change so much. I still remember the burning disappointment of Star Trek Generations. I went with a group of friends and family and I was buzzing with excitement. By the end, I was holding back the tears of misery. I simply couldn't fathom why Kirk's death was so lame, why the battle scene was so badly done and don't get me started on that awkward saucer crash sequence.Watching the making of Generations on the DVD's, its clear that the crew were rushed and couldn't get the saucer to fly and crash right. To this day, I think Shatner was given no direction and simply played himself instead - when did Kirk develop an interest in horses? or dogs? or cookery for that matter? And who the hell is Antonia!

    Then again, the film is trying to actually be about something. Its about three men, who are thinking about and seeking immortality in completely different ways. You can actually understand Sorans motivations and some of the humour lands.

    So, my revised list in 2022.

    Star Trek VI: TUC - perfection (it still is! such a deep film when you are a history student)
    Star Trek II: TWOK - classic
    Star Trek: TMP - Epic in scope and a serious sci-fi film that does not get enough respect.
    Star Trek IV: TVH - great fun, hugely under rated now, the F/X are amazing
    Star Trek III: TSFS - mythic. The stealing of the Enterprise is magnificent.
    Star Trek: Generations - You know what? At least they were trying to tell an original story.
    Star Trek: First Contact - Yeah, its a good action flick. But what the hell is going on with Picard? He is nothing like the Picard in the TV show. It's all a bit simple. The only TNG movie with a consistent tone though.
    Star Trek V: TFF - needed more money. Not quite as terrible as you remember.
    Star Trek: Insurrection - Oh my god, this is embarrassing to watch now. The joystick scene and the floatation device scene - what were they thinking?
    Star Trek: Nemesis - Wow. This movie is truly terrible. The blu-ray transfer is also shockingly bad. Good DTS sound though.

    Rewatching the TNG movies and they have dated so badly. Even Sir Patrick is all over the place. The whispered dialog in Generations is just weird and everyone seems to be acting for TV. Then in First Contact, he's a badass action hero in a revenge flick and finally, in Nemesis, everyone is acting morose and you can tell that their hearts just aren't in it anymore.
     
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  2. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I go back and forth on the specific rankings, but my general opinion of them has remained pretty much the same since I saw them. Right now I go:

    Wrath of Khan: just a classic

    Voyage Home: pure fun

    First Contact: despite the Borg Queen intro muddying the Borg, still the best TNG movie

    Undiscovered Country: very good, but I just can't get over that veridium patch staying with Kirk through trial, processing, transport, imprisonment...

    Beyond: easily the best of the Kelvin movies

    Search for Spock: unfairly maligned because it's the weakest of the 2-3-4 trilogy, but still quite good

    Motion Picture: slow but ambitious

    Final Frontier: low budget shows, but still fun...worth it for the "I need my pain" speech alone

    2009: stupid fun, did what it needed to do

    Generations: the Shatnerverse novels undoing Kirk's death save this one from joining the next three on this list in the "Trek movies I flat out don't like" category

    Insurrection: profoundly stupid...one village that doesn't use tech anymore is preventing Starfleet from setting up a giant hospital complex on the other side of the planet...how? the magical healing planet also joins Treks long list of potentially life changing discoveries and inventions that never gets mentioned again, even when Riker and Trois son gets a fatal illness

    Into Darkness: a pale...to the point of being almost transparent...copy of a much much better movie that's always in my top two (I go back and forth between 2 and 4)

    Nemesis: just...so dark and bleak and...dark; like visually...were there no lights on set? and look: Troi gets mind raped again...just an unpleasant movie...that kills off Data because Brent Spiner says he can't keep playing an immortal android...then immediately casts him as a physically identical immortal android...
     
  3. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The earliest ratings of mine I can find are from back when Into Darkness came out, so they're not quite 20 years old, but this is how my feelings have changed over time:
    1. Star Trek (2009) - up by 1 place. It's been long enough now for me to be comfortable putting this above Wrath of Khan. Even though half of it doesn't makes sense.
    2. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - down by 1 place. Used to be my favourite Trek movie and it's still very close.
    3. Star Trek Beyond - New entry.
    4. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock - up 1 place.
    5. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home - up 5 places. It took me a long while, but I finally came around on Voyage Home and learned to appreciate it for what it was. Despite the music and the occasionally cheesy comedy.
    6. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country - down 2 places. I used to like this more, but the more I watch it the more the constant Shakespeare quotes get to me.
    7. Star Trek: First Contact - down 1 place.
    8. Star Trek Into Darkness - down 5 places. Now that I've had time to think its flaws have become more obvious. I'd put it as the worst of the good movies, but I still think it's good.
    9. Star Trek: Insurrection - down 2 places. Still the best of the okay movies.
    10. Star Trek: Nemesis - down 1 place.
    11. Star Trek: The Motion Picture - Same position.
    12. Star Trek V: The Final Frontier - Same position.
    13. Star Trek: Generations - down 5 places. It's a depressing movie with a lacklustre climax that doesn't come close to living up to its potential.
     
  4. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My middle films fluctuate quite a bit. My favorite 3 have been consistent for years. TMP has always been my favorite film and that has not changed since I watched it the first time on VHS in the 1980s. TWOK likewise has been my 2nd favorite with First Contact rounding out my top 3. And my bottom 2 are consistent. Insurrection falls in at 12 and TFF at 13. If they ever fixed the lousy special effects for TFF I would switch those. But the effects are so poor that it drags the movie down for me. Insurrection, while a flawed film, is at least competently made and I love the cinematography of that film. It has some beautiful planet shots.

    Now the films in the middle meander around a bit. I used to like TUC more but as the years go by its lost some luster for me. I really have a hard time with the overt bigotry of Kirk's command crew outside of Spock. I can understand some doubt and cautiousness. But it was over the top and just does not sound like an enlightened crew (Kirk I can understand though). TVH is a fun film, and a much needed reprieve from the heavier TWOK and TSFS. That probably falls around 4th to 6th place for me most of the time. TSFS is just ahead of TFF of the original series films. It's got some great scenes for the first 2/3 of the film, but the sequence on Vulcan seems to drag.

    For TNG films outside FC, Nemesis would be my 2nd favorite. Those 2 films actually feel like 'movies' to me and not like a 2 part episode of the TNG series. Overall Nemesis is a middle of the road film for me. I don't understand all the hate that movie gets to be honest. It's not a masterpiece by any means, but I thought it was ok and it has some of the greatest space battle scenes of all the films. Generations is in the lower half of the films. I agree they at least try to do something original, and I actually liked the Nexus idea. But I don't like Kirk's death scene (not that he dies, but the how he dies part--except for his 'first' death on the Enterprise-B--that at least seems in line with how he would die).

    For the Abrams films, Beyond is my favorite. I do go against the grain sometimes and this is one of those times. I was really happy that Earth was not in peril this time, and they try to do some different things with that movie. And Urban has more to do and of all the actors he's probably my favorite so that was a plus. Scotty also is more involved and not just odious comic relief (and STID moved in that direction as well). As the years go by I like Star Trek (2009) less and less. For whatever reason it's not holding up for me. It's still a decent film and all, but I just don't like it as much as I once did. STID has several issues as well.
     
  5. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My opinion of TUC has decreased somewhat over the years. I used to think it was the pinnacle of the TOS movie era.

    Kor
     
  6. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From repeated viewings from the 3 generations of movies, I think The Undiscovered Country continues to fall on my list; it will never be as bad as The Search for Spock but there's a lot of plot and story decisions that just doesn't jibe with what I know and love about these characters and the paraphernalia they embody. The movie has fallen into mediocrity because most of its narrative just doesn't make any sense. While rising from the ashes comes TMP, where I had to dismiss it as continuity to TOS and except it as it's own thing; a work of art which embraces pieces of Star Trek and it forming a rebirth from what was perfect to something their world had to earn. A clunky, experimental, brand new Enterprise, that barely works, where I saw human personnel patching together the remains of a completed saucer while mini pod swirl around it.

    Spock earned his emotional release by the end of the movie in some odd way and I wish Kirk had something similar in getting the ship back, but film, and mean film not movie, was about the exploration of the human condition and asks the questions humans has asked since its existence. Death could possibly be a rebirth and the universe could be more than what it is. TWOK remains solid from repeated viewing and its flaws are minimal because William Shatner is not sharing the limelight with anyone; he's carrying this picture and it shines. Along with the great Montalban giving IMO an Oscar worthy performance never missing a beat in his Ahab delivery was spine chillingly entertaining. It never gets out of hand like mostly ALL adversary actors who proceeded him, it is why I love this movie so much like TMP before it was producing a rebirth of the franchise and injecting it with something that was fun and bold. TVH continues this sense of boldness by having humanity be the cause of the dilemma which faces their existence and learning something in the process, something I wished TFF made a closing point to this because God would be a nice touch to close the Bible borrowing these Harve Bennett productions was delivering.

    TNG movies were completed wastes of celluloid, the more I watched those 4 bad movies the more it weakened to allure of the Data character, and made Captain Picard, a character who was a strong centered leader on TV was a faceted mess of a leader in the movies. Nothing seemed to make sense with the decisions he made in those garbage pile of movies but it is not TSFS which is for me the ALIEN 3 of Star Trek, these movies' conclusions stunned me every time because it just felt wrong. Picard leaving Kirk's body on a desolate planet and not bringing him back to Earth, he doesn't hide the fact he and his crew are from the future and was completely involved in the process of First Contact with Vulcans, fighting and feeling good about an insurrection against the Federation on a planet that belongs to the Federation, and ramming the ugly Enterprise on his doppelganger's ship when he could've done something the counterpart would've never conceive, the Picard Maneuver, also Data killing himself that had zero weight to it and then clunkily opens the door for a rebirth. Still I felt those movies should've had more of a Borg narrative throughout their run such like the Klingons were for Kirk's movies because they were Picard's own arch nemesis and he needed to deal with them until his run of movies were done. Huge mistake.

    JJTrek, who injected STAR WARS into Trek, as I still watch them holds up, with the exception of Beyond for me was the worst of the trilogy, it injected new life into Star Trek and embraced the elements from the first season of TOS. Balls to walls adventure, it embraces the sexiness and youth of the series and is not embarrassed by them, despite what a few big mouths complained about Alice Eve exposing her space undies FORGETTING this stuff were sprinkled throughout the movie including Zoe Saldana did as well in the previous one. Star Trek in the 60's never was ashamed of the sexual revolution, even going so bold to present a sexual encounter in TMP's climax; sorry Trekkers or Trekkies, sex has always been in Star Trek's nature and it is too bad some producers and fans just don't get it. BEYOND was everything I hated about new Trek, it seemed to be embarrassed by the source material and drags the crappy picture with derivative actions sequences which were formulaic from a director who's done it over and over and over and over again from another lucrative franchise.

    Star Trek is beautiful when it is not afraid to boldly go and I hope JJ Abrams go back in there and share what he did with the first 2 movies so they won't do what was done with BEYOND again. What a waste of a great title? Star Trek Beyond, but really stuck on a baron planet performing motorcycle stunts. FEH!

    Before:
    1. TVH 2. TWOK 3. TUC 4. TSFS 5. TFF 6. TMP 7. Star Trek 8. ID 9. Beyond 10. Gen 11. FC 12. Ins 13. Nem

    Today after repeated updated viewings:

    1. TVH 2. TWOK 3. Star Trek 4. Into Darkness 5. TMP 6. TFF 7. Generations 8. Insurrection 9. Nemesis 10. FIRST CONTACT 11. THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY 12. BEYOND 13. THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK

    Tbh, 7 - 11 are interchangeable but BEYOND and THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK will remain. These are terrible movies and should be burned in a furnace.
     
  7. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    My opinion of them hasn't changed over time. I like all the TOS Movies and TWOK is my favorite. The only TNG Movie I really like is FC; and I think the rest are mediocre. I like the Kelvin Films only up to a degree: there's always a "but... "
     
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  8. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

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    I've gone from right out hating the Star Trek 09 to really appreciating it. Couldn't stand it on release but I find it's very rewatchable these days. If I ever rewatch Into Darkness I hope for a similar set of revelatory feelings.

    Can't stand any of the TNG movies. Generations has always been the best of the bunch for me but I still don't overly like it.

    As far as TOS movies go, I've always liked II, IV and VI. That's never shifted. However, I have really come to appreciate III, a very underrated movie.

    TMP I've done a complete turnaround on. Couldn't sit through it when I was younger but these days I love it.
     
  9. Admiral Archer

    Admiral Archer Captain Captain

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    Dec 28, 2009
    My ratings are CONSTANTLY changing slightly, but generally they remain the same. Nemesis has fallen below Generations on my list of TNG films, the first two Kelvinverse films are no longer the GOAT that I made them out to be when first released, and I rate Star Trek IV MUCH higher now that I have an actual sense of humor. Also, Star Trek II and VI are not as overrated IMO as I thought they once were.

    I can only guess, but I'd say about ten years ago I'd rate the films this way:

    1 - Into Darkness
    2 - Star Trek 2009
    3 - Star Trek TMP
    4 - First Contact
    5 - Search for Spock
    6 - Wrath of Khan
    7 - Insurrection
    8 - Undiscovered Country
    9 - Final Frontier
    10 - Voyage Home
    11 - Nemesis
    12 - Generations

    Nowadays I'd say below sounds about right:

    1 - Star Trek TMP
    2 - First Contact
    3 - Wrath of Khan
    4 - Voyage Home
    5 - Into Darkness
    6 - Star Trek 2009
    7 - Search for Spock
    8 - Insurrection
    9 - Undiscovered Country
    10 - Generations
    11 - Final Frontier
    12 - Beyond
    13 - Nemesis
     
  10. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    For the TOS movies: I appreciate TSFS more than I used to. Shooting on a set for the Genesis planet and how TSFS undoes a lot of what TWOK introduced (David Marcus, Genesis Planet and Spock’s death). Are things that really hold the film back for me.

    For the TNG movies: GEN used to be my 2nd favorite after FC. Now NEM is my number two. GEN just has so many problems. Self-imposed by the writers. The film just falls apart for me.

    For the Kelvin movies: I really liked STID initially. But after being exposed to more projects from Abrams. It’s at the bottom of the pile. BEY for number 1 and 09 for number 2.
     
  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My main change is that I used to rank TWOK #1 and TMP #2; now it's the other way around.

    INS and TSFS have dropped. When NEM came out, STV was no longer dead last.

    I liked BEY a lot less the second time around than the the first. It seemed a lot more tedious and pointless. I think these films are the most indispensable of the lot:

    TMP
    TWOK
    STXI
    TVH
    TUC
    FC
     
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  12. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    When I was a kid the six films were IV, V, VI, II, III, I. Now it's II, VI, IV, V, III and I. I came to TMP late so I never really had any affinity for it other than it's look. TWOK I thought was too serious when I was a kid but I really enjoy that take on it now.
    TFF I always had a soft spot for and appreciate it's cheese and what I would expect from it are low compared to TSFS which I always thought should have been a better followup to TWOK and I hate the Genesis soundstage and Kruge.
    The TNG films I rank about the same as their release. I always hated Insurrection and Nemesis. First Contact and Generations I rank abour the same as although First Contact is probably better I really like seeing the Enterprise-D and the TNG uniforms.
    The Kelvin films is where I really changed. I fucking hated Trek 09 and Into Darkness made me depressed but I think there's a lot more good than I initially gave them credit but still really messy and in ID's case too much shoved into one film. Beyond I think the same which is that it has good character moments and I appreciate what it was doing but everything in that I wish was in the previous films and Beyond had been some new story other than bad guy angry at the Federation wants to destroy it.
     
  13. Phil123

    Phil123 Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't have the benefit of finding an old list, and I won't do one here as I did one somewhere else here recently.

    But yes, my opinions have changed a little over the almost 30 years I've been watching Star Trek.

    TMP has moved up a lot. Yes it's slow and has flaws but there are so many good fast paced sci-fi action films available now that a slow burn with deep concepts, no "big bad" guy and stunning visuals ticks the box sometimes.

    IV TVH has moved up a bit. Again, used to not like the lack of space action but there are now so many places to go to see that. A non-slapstick/satire comedy again with no "big bad" is a great thing to have.

    FC has gone down a bit. It's great fun but as said above Picard changes a little too much and the Borg Queen while cool does ruin the Borg a little.

    09 is great fun, ID is terrible and Beyond is not bad. I have fun in the Kelvinverse but to me (and my opinion only, happy that others disagree) it will always be Trek-lite, or like a Saturday morning cartoon version of Trek. Great fun, but don't think too much about anything. I know it's technically linked to Canon and the Prime universe, but to me it will always be a just a fun alternative take on the Star Trek idea which stands apart from everything else. I don't like listing them with the other moves as they are so different, but when I do none would crack the top 5.
     
  14. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not much change for me, I think just that Generations and more so The Final Frontier dipped from OK and good to below average going from kid to teenager and both have then increased back up to where they previously were, also Insurrection went from OK to well below average and still is. I think TMP has mildly improved to OK.
     
  15. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Most of my opinions haven't changed much.

    I'd say the biggest "movers" were TMP and TUC.

    I used to almost completely dismiss TMP in the wake of TWOK and TSFS particularly. Now, however, TMP is easily in my top 3 and I really appreciate it. Conversely, when it first came out, I thought TUC was a top film in the franchise...and it's fallen massively since then due to it's very obvious flaws (rushed production, flawed story elements, wink-at-the-audience performances).

    I also really liked BEY when it was theatrically released...and while I certainly don't dislike it now, I find it very pedestrian and unremarkable now that it's been out a while.
     
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  16. Hedbergian

    Hedbergian Commodore Commodore

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    My feelings of the films really haven't changed much over the years ...

    Classics
    - Undiscovered Country
    - Wrath of Khan

    Art House
    - TMP

    Solid Action Films
    - First Contact
    - Search for Spock
    - 2009
    - Beyond

    Family Fun
    - Voyage Home

    Cinematic "Missteps" ... "bizarre" films
    - Generations
    - Insurrection
    - Final Frontier

    Cinematic Disasters
    - Into Darkness
    - Nemesis

    Best of "character consistency / familiarity"
    - Insurrection
    - Beyond
    - All of the first six
     
  17. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do think it is pretty unique, cool though also unfortunate, that with the TNG films both those who hated the show and those who loved the show tend to think at least most of the films were pretty bad.
     
  18. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For me, it's all relative. I honestly don't think the TNG films were "bad" in the broader context. I just think they are weaker than the TOS and Kelvin films. I actually enjoy all of them to varying degrees, and for the most part I believe they are entertaining and competently made. They may not have worked well in the context of the franchise, but I think they are solid sci-fi action/adventure movies in their own right.
     
  19. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    TMP - boring film

    TWOK – An all time cinematic classic that I’m also kind of tired of because of how often producers have gone to both the revenge well and the Khan well. Even though this film was as inspired by “Balance of Terror” in terms of production as it was inspired by “Space Seed” for backstory. Bumped out of my top three.

    TSFS – a solid film. Probably the best of the odd numbered films, including the Kelvin films

    TVH – bumped up to third as it encompasses the spirit of Star Trek the most, which is badly needed today.

    TFF – a lot of cool scenes, but a plodding pace.

    TUC – I have contemplated replacing First Contact with this film as my favourite. The conspiracy and political intrigue of the film appeals to me as someone who’s favourite Trek show is DS9.

    GEN – the last original film before the producers started to go to revenge plot well - started by TWOK - in FC.

    FC – still the favourite, and when it came to going to the revenge well, it put a twist on the idea by making it the protaganist instead of the antagonist. However, this movie is also why Enterprise was created - to explain the gap between First Contact and TOS – which saw series ratings lows that put the franchise on ice on tv for 12 years. I would say that only TUC and TVH have a chance of surpassing FC in my favourites list in a future reassessment. Its that good.

    INS – a forgettable episode of TNG that was turned into a film. It needed a Cardassian or Vorta antagonist involved to highlight the stakes.

    NEM – It needs the director’s cut with the deleted scene re-added to truly assess the original vision of the film. As is, even though I like the opening scene in the Romulan senate chamber, the space battle in the Bassen Rift and the dune buggy scene, the criticisms towards the film are nonetheless justified.

    The Kelvin films – clearly inspired by the first ten movies, but sexed up and with more pew pew action. Resulting in a flashy reboot that started the trend in Star Trek of destroying planets for shock value (ST09), nuTWOK (ID), and an original-ish film (BEY). I feel that if someone was to take everything from the start of the film to Kirk taking command from Spock in ST’09, everything up to the Kirk pleading with Admiral Marcus to spare his crew in ID (minus the Khan reveal), and everything but the revenge plot of BEY, that person could make a classic Star Trek film out if it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2022
  20. Ottens

    Ottens Commander Red Shirt

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    I didn't appreciate TMP as a kid. Now it's one of my favorites. It's not the most exciting of the ten, but I think it's beautifully done, it feels real.

    I recently rewatched Generations. Kirk's death is disappointing, and Shatner wasn't at his best. In both The Final Frontier (where he directed himself) and Generations, Shatner doesn't show any vulnerability in Kirk. Meyer and Nimoy teased out those moments in 2, 3 and 6.

    I don't get the hate for Insurrection. I think they were right not to try to make another action movie after First Contact, against which it would be inevitably compared. I think they were also right not to put Picard in a vulnerable position for a third movie in a row (after losing his family in Generations and having to deal with the trauma of his Borg assimilation in First Contact), and instead give him a chance to make a stand. I agree the Son'a were underwhelming villains, although F. Murray Abraham gave it his all. (He said about acting in heavy makeup that it was like making love in the dark.)

    I'm not sure who else the villains could have been, though. The Ferengi are an obvious candidate - and you can even imagine a scenario in which the UFP would seize on this as a chance to draw the Ferengi into a wartime alliance against the Dominion. But the Ferengi just aren't threatening.

    One movie I haven't changed my mind about is Nemesis. It was disappointing the first time I saw it, and it still is. Someone commented on how it felt the actors' hearts just weren't in it. I suspect that might have something to do with the director, who'd apparently never watched Star Trek and didn't care to immerse himself in the franchise. At least that's what Marina Sirtis said. The whole premise of a human clone taking over the Romulan Empire by killing the Senate is ridiculous. His motivations don't make a lot of sense. Finding yet another Data "brother" was uninspired.
     
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