How does the Federation's cashless economy work?

[bfollowell]

OK, it's probably a given that I'm not an economist. I've never even played one on TV. I was raised a devout capitalist so the idea of a cashless society is pretty alien to me. I'm just trying to figure out how the Federation's cashless society works. I mean sure, most everyone works and contributes to the common good, so they're taken care of in one way or another. They rarely want for anything. But what about the lazy people that want to just lie around the house and surf the Galactic Internet all day and play and sleep and get fat? Are we really to believe all laziness has been abolished? It really sounds like one big welfare state.

It's common to see or read about characters buying things on planets that do have cash-based economies. If they come from a cashless society, where to they acquire the cash they use to buy these things? Where does the Federation come up with the cash to purchase things from other planets/societies that aren't as enlightened?

I've always wondered this and was curious what everyone else's opinion on the subject was.

- Byron

 

[iguana_tonante]

This is so weird, somehow we actually never discussed this topic on the board before now.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The resurrected Captain Kirk couldn't understand it no matter how many times Spock tried to explain it to him. Kirk was unhappy with his appartment and couldn't understand how he couldn't just walk over to a nicer one and claim it for himself.

That should tell you all you need to know - it's a joke.

 

[zarkon]

Given replicators & automation, I assume the resources people need are rather less. Energy of course, so you need people working in an energy plant & mining. Usual public services, schooling and so forth.

Pehaps it works similarly to Wirr in "The Stainless Steel Rat gets Drafted", with people clocking up work hours. Then they could exchange them for services or non-replicatable goods, but they would be non transferable and couldn't accrue credit.

 

[bfollowell]

Pehaps it works similarly to Wirr in "The Stainless Steel Rat gets Drafted", with people clocking up work hours. Then they could exchange them for services or non-replicatable goods, but they would be non transferable and couldn't accrue credit.

True, I could see that working, at least for those willing to contribute in some way. Still, what about those not willing to work? I find it unrealistic to the extreme to believe all laziness has been eradicated and that everyone is a hard-working, productive member of society. I'm pretty sure there will always be those individuals whose sole purpose in life is to be a drain on society as a whole.

 

[Relayer1]

Given replicators & automation, I assume the resources people need are rather less. Energy of course, so you need people working in an energy plant & mining. Usual public services, schooling and so forth.

Well, even energy should be virtually free - matter antimatter reactions / clean fusion / solar, wave and wind power etc.

With excellent education for all, and according to Gene, a fundamental change in humanity, the underclass should be eliminated and motivation to contribute in some way should be high.

I would assume that society would work along the lines of from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs...

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Like much SF, star trek concerns himself with how will technology be - but neglects the laws of biology or sociology - beyond in-passing mentions of money-less economy and other such concepts.
It's one reason I enjoy Asimov's work - in many of his stories, the sociological problems are at the forefront, not the technology.

About star trek's economy - the best explanation is that it only uses electronic currency and that every federation citizen receives enough to live more than confortably.
Of course, not every federation citizen can afford luxury items, etc.

 

[zarkon]

True, I could see that working, at least for those willing to contribute in some way. Still, what about those not willing to work? I find it unrealistic to the extreme to believe all laziness has been eradicated and that everyone is a hard-working, productive member of society. I'm pretty sure there will always be those individuals whose sole purpose in life is to be a drain on society as a whole.

In the book I was referring to, it was calculated that someone would have to work about 2 to 3 hours a month for the basic amenities of living -food, shelter, heat. I'd hope even the laziest people should be able to manage that.

Well, even energy should be virtually free - matter antimatter reactions / clean fusion / solar, wave and wind power etc.

As to energy, I was assuming human overseeing on the operations since it's a vital task, maintenance, mining/recrystallisation of dilithium, etc.

 

[Sci]

Star Trek is full of a lot of contradictions over whether or not there is some form of currency in the Federation.

For my money -- no pun intended -- the simplest explanation is that there is a form of electronic currency (the Federation credit), but little or no cash, and that the Federation economy exists in such a state of abundance that it is no longer necessary for everyone to work in order to survive. Energy resources are just so abundant that the Federation and its Member States can more than afford to provide every Federation resident with enough resources to live a healthy, safe lifestyle, whether or not they work. But, if those residents want more than that -- if they want, say, more than a modest apartment, or want to live in a beach house, or want to own a vehicle or have luxuries -- then they have to find employment and earn money.

And I absolutely refuse to believe that the Federation allows for significant inherited wealth, for corporate personhood, or for those who achieve great wealth to have disproportionate political power.

And while there will, it's true, always be some people who just want to live off the system and have no ambition, I'd be willing to bet that if you have a real education system and an economy that gives people real opportunities (rather than relegating a percentage of the population to eternal poverty while transferring wealth to the top as much as possible, as capitalism does), you'd see a hell of a lot of people working to earn a good education and achieve professional success simply because life without a job you're passionate about can be pretty empty and unfulfilling.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And I absolutely refuse to believe that the Federation allows for significant inherited wealth, for corporate personhood, or for those who achieve great wealth to have disproportionate political power.

I don't see any problem with significant inherited wealth if there's an abundance of it to go around. The post-scarcity model works best for me. I.e. everyone has so much no one really NEEDS money anymore and it's such a trivial thing many people don't bother with it save as an abstract.

Sort of like if you could buy your new car with loose change.

 

[Technobuilder]

To even really begin to fathom the cashless economy of Star Trek, you have to first wrap your head around the idea of never having to struggle to survive. It's not that there's not "want" but it's of a more complex variety. Want of greater education, want to create and express.

All basic needs are provided for in a world of Replication & Free Energy and no one born into that world knows any different.

I've often wondered what my life would be filled with if I didn't have to work to earn money, to feed, to clothe, to provide shelter, to receive medical treatment.

Not having to wonder where you're going to sleep or where your next meal is coming from creates a dynamic most of us aren't accustomed to and it colors how we might try to rationalize said economy.

Credits seem like the most probable way of dealing with material wants beyond basic needs.

Yet you have to remember, if you're a fashion designer do you sell your clothes or do you just give them to people for the sole joy of seeing your designs in the world?

If you're a chef do you sell your food, or do you give it away to those who can eat anything they might desire so that your skills and talents are appreciated by others?

If consumerism no longer exists by and large, then crafters and artisans will be grateful to people who take their creations because they had a choice and they chose to use/enjoy their creations and not the basic replicator pattern of the week.

It's an entirely different way of looking at the world. And yeah, it assumes that people are willing to contribute but what life is there for someone who does nothing all day? That gets old, believe me.

People can take vacations whenever the mood strikes, they can be with their families when the situations arise Births, Deaths, Weddings, etc.

Most of the crappy jobs disappear in a world of replication. Garbage no longer exists. Sewage no longer exists. It's all just matter for the replicator.

I've always wanted to learn how to fly, but the time and expense, not to mention the possible dangers have always kept me grounded, but imagine a world were pilots are needed and others are willing to teach just because they love flying.

The ideas are there, it's just hard to wrap our heads around because we live in the "real" world.

Give us Clean/Free energy, The ability to reorganize Matter at the subatomic level, and provide for every basic need to a standard well beyond that of most luxury hotels and yeah, I think i might have time to get another degree or volunteer a few days a week.

 

[Destructor]

If you really can't handle the idea of a post-money society, try reading some of Ian M. Banks' 'Culture' novels. Post-money, post-scarcity, post-disease, post-possessions, post-compulsion, practically post-emotion (they have emotions but through drugs feel basically however they want). After reading that and getting your head around it, thinking of Star Trek as a moneyless society gets pretty easy.