There have been numerous in NuWho of people throughout time and space being aware of Gallifrey's destruction, and the fact that the Doctor is the last Time Lord. In 2006/7, Mr Finch spoke of the Time Lords in the past tense (School Reunion), and in 1580 Rosanna also seemed to be aware of the War (The Vampires of Venice). But it's when one takes the classic series into consideration that things become problematic. In The Three Doctors, it was strongly implied that Gallifrey existed contemporary to Earth in the 1970s. In The Two Doctors, set around 1985, the Time Lords were very much in power, and references made by characters such as Sabalom Glitz implied that they were considered very much alive around 2,000,000 AD, as shown in The Trial of a Time Lord. So how come in the new series, wherever and whenever the Doctor travels, be it past, present or future, the Time Lords are considered long extinct or mythical?
How do so many people know about the Time War? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
In the original 2006 essay from the magazine I believe that Russell states that the Time War effected all the really advanced species and minor ones had no clue that it was being fought. It's possible that during the conflict that some of the battles "leaked" into other species conscienceness and affected them this way and they knew of legends of the Time War. That'd be my guess why some know about and others don't. It'd be too difficult to put a guess as to how many people and species are actually aware of it.
Incidentally, I have just read that in Paul Cornell's 1993 novel Goth Opera, it's implied that Gallifrey and the Time Lords no longer exist by the twentieth century. Not really too sure what to make of this, myself.
Oh, and the Sontarans know about the Time War too, as was revealed in The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky. What's interesting about Rosanna is that she even knew that the Doctor himself killed all of his people.
Oh, and the Sontarans know about the Time War too, as was revealed in The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky. What's interesting about Rosanna is that she even knew that the Doctor himself killed all of his people.
After the Time War ended, the time stream was changed so that anyone in any era who does know about the Time Lords know they are extinct, or near enough. I thought this was made perfectly clear all along?
My theory for a while now is that, like the end-of-the-universe crack in Flesh and Stone, the time lock basically cut off all of the Daleks and Timelords from the Universe at all points of time, so that if you went looking for them in your big blue box, it would be like they never existed. However, their presence would still be felt and, unlike the cracks, still remembered.
Gallifrey ran on absolute time, even though Time Lords went all around time like right fiends. So once Gallifrey's gone, it's gone for everyone at any time. In an absolute sort of way. I probably didn't put that very well, but it makes sense in my own head.
As for all these merchants everywhere knowing - it was surely big news. To the time-aware.
As for all these merchants everywhere knowing - it was surely big news. To the time-aware.
That's it: either you knew nothing about the Time War (aside, possibly, from having half your planet wiped out, but more often your species's either been wiped from history, or restored by a counter-move), or you know about it, but weren't necessarily a major combatant, and just have to deal with the aftermath.
That's the impression I got. I'm not sure if this is from an episode or not, but it was my understanding that Gallifrey existed outside of regular time, meaning that it was impossible to travel to Gallifrey's past or future. Rather, if you left for N days and then returned, regardless of what era, you would always end up there N days later than you left. For example, if you left Gallifrey in a TARDIS to visit Earth in the year 2010, then travelled back in time to 3000 B.C. and hung around there for ten years, and then returned to Gallifrey, you would return to find that ten years had passed there.
I can't find anything about this, so I guess it's not canonical, but it kind of fits with your theory.
Yeah, that's exactly my understanding. I'm fairly sure it's in some book somewhere. If it's not, it should be.
there does seem to be some awareness of the Time War across the galaxy, but I didnt know it was hidden, locked maybe but not hidden.
An alien in SJA even mentioned it, but her people could see the time lines, and were exterminated by the Daleks, so its natural she would.
An alien in SJA even mentioned it, but her people could see the time lines, and were exterminated by the Daleks, so its natural she would.
Basically, the Time Lords have been retconned.
I always took the Time War to mean that the Time Lords and Daleks have both been erased from all of history (the Doctor excepted, presumably because he was the one who wielded the Moment), with the "time lock" being the thing that keeps the Time Lords from the old timeline from re-writing themselves back into the current timeline. I'd theorize that species with an awareness of the effects of time travel would sense history being re-written and retain some awareness of what the Time Lords (and Daleks) were, even if they didn't actually have any living memory of them.
I've always taken Gallifrey (and other time travelers) as operating according to one's personal timeline, especially when that someone has a very keen sense of understanding time travel. Since the show really only follows one personal timeline -- the Doctor's -- what we see is relative to him. The Gallifrey that we see in the 51st century isn't necessarily the future of 21st century Gallifrey, for example; it all depends on the experiences of who is traveling TO/FROM Gallifrey.
This extends to something like the Daleks, in a sense. Clearly the Daleks from WWII, from Victory, were more advanced than the Van Statten's Dalek, despite the latter being in the 21st century. I imagine Gallifrey gives itself that kind of fluidity, and that the time stream is really the "personal timelines" of everyone in existence, if you want a chi-type of explanation.
However, to be fair, I'm pretty sure a story like the Two Doctors and the story's use of Gallifrey introduces quite a few nits into my own interpretation of how the planet and the Time Lords work.
But ultimately, as the show has long established, time is not strictly linear, and in that case, "personal timeline" is another way of phrasing the word "context."
The Time Lords can't have been erased from history, because people know about them, even those who don't seem all that "time-aware." And like I said, Gallifrey seemed roughly contemporary with twentieth century Earth in The Three Doctors and The Two Doctors. I still maintain that it is absolutely impossible for there to be a post-Gallifreyan era, as the Time Lords exist in all time zones, hence their name.