How did the Romulans leave Vulcan?
- Thread starter Sandoval
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Or that Vulcans have had warp capability, or at least FTL capability, for a very, very long time.
Sounds just like the thing a Star Trek hero would do - which is sorta fun when a side character or even a guest villain of sorts does it instead. Although I guess it was another exaggeration the legends caught during those two millennia.
But it's fun to think that a superhuman action hero from a long line of superhuman action heroes became the spiritual leader of an exodus for a few decades, while a soft-spoken computer nerd became the spiritual leader of a world for millennia.
Surprisingly consistent with other writing on the subject, though, including some canon stuff. What's the point of telepathy where you can't tell what the other guy is thinking? Why, it must be a weapon! (Although the canon answer is, of course, "Why, it must be for sex!", which is also cool.)
Religions do tend to be obvious like that.
And Vulcans probably would have a close relationship to all those four, in order to get around in the desert. Although "earth" might just as well be "sand" if the guys are carnivores through and through and never try to make things grow in the soil. Makes Surakian veganism all the more interesting as an exercise of severe, even species-endangering ascetism...
Timo Saloniemi
YMMV, I guess. It's less the superhuman action hero part (which, while not especially plausible, was consistent with what came before) but the use of aliens at all. It seems like a foreign and unnecessary element.
That's true. In the novels, and in various canon works like Gambit, it's just a little too uberpowerful. It's weird, because Vulcan telepathy generally makes sense as a concept, since it avoids most of the disbelief-breaking pitfalls of, say, Betazoid communication.
I mean, if I want to see Jedi, I'll read a Star Wars book.
What's obvious about fire, earth, air, and water? Other than it being the modern, bowdlerized Western conception of elementalism? Aristotle didn't think it was obvious, adding aether; the Babylonians didn't think it was obvious, using earth, sea, sky and wind; the Chinese didn't think it was obvious, using fire, earth, water, metal and wood.
Also the Rommies probably shouldn't think it terribly obvious, being well aware of at least protons, neutrons, and electrons... as well as electromagnetism,* gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear forces, which if you're going for a manageable number are both ideal.
*Or even electricity and magnetism. But a unification is probably necessary for space flight; an electroweak unification is more obscure.
I dunno. They probably had some level agriculture. Aside from having enough surplus for them to build societies and A-bombs, they at least breathe oxygen--there are primary producers somewhere.
It seems to be limited to specific skilled individuals or amplification devices there, though. And it's sort of satisfying to think that Vulcan telepathy would be uneven like that, dependent on inborn/trained skill; wars would be fought over control of such rare personnel resources, or groveling religions founded, depending on how powerful exactly the individual happened to be.
The modern Surakian society would discourage the old practices that had led to old Vulcan being a wizard-infested Middle Earth of sorts. The inconvenient fact of the continuing existence of these wizards would nicely explain how the society would retain elements Starfleet considers "mysticism", though: there would be a supernatural aspect to the Vulcan way of life, not because the society would be superstitious or unable/unwilling to rationally analyze certain phenomena, but because the society would actively try and not see the existence of certain super-Vulcan powers. Powerful wizards would be fine as long as they were kept isolated in their mountain monasteries and the like...
Point taken. Then again, perhaps good old Universal Translator is at work again? All sorts of complexities and nuances might be lost on the modern listener, even if the UT was actually doing a good job and using expressions from Earth cultural history that best approximate the alien practices. (I'm thinking of Troglytes here - somebody or something named them in Terran Latin/English without telling Kirk and Spock, and it probably wasn't anybody on the alien Ardana.)
Timo Saloniemi
I think it was stated on TV/film or in a book that Vulcan was once more like Earth, but the wars that were fought devastated the ecosystem, and turned it into a desert? If that be the case, Romulus could be closer to what Vulcan originally was, just like Mintaka III wasn't one global desert.
^Spock's World described a solar flare that fried the day-side of the planet and desertified pretty much its entire terrestrial surface. It's problematic for a number of reasons, although it's not that bad an explanation, all things considered, because it does at least purport to explain how a species that obviously came from arboreal roots got on Vulcan when it keeps being said there aren't any forests and hardly any trees.
Now, personally, I prefer an oceanic anoxic event and a geologically rapid, P-T boundary style climate change, at ~2mya, leading to the destruction of most crypto-primates with Vulcans emerging from the selective pressures after the destruction of their arboreal habitat.
Actually, this could be pushed up to the time or Surak or thereabouts. Given that some hypotheses regarding the P-T extinction attribute it to greenhouse gases--and given that there is some concern that a P-T boundary-like event could be looming for us--climate change on Vulcan could easily be anthropogenic. Especially given how thick they appear to be.
The problem with the Surak society being opposed to Vulcan mysticism is that it leaves unexplained why the Romulans, who reject Surakism, appear to have nonetheless broken all their staffs and drowned all their books. It always made more sense to me that esoteric Surakism was where stuff like telepathy--and even the possibility of immortality--came from. I do agree that it's obviously been regulated heavily among the general population, for reasons not entirely clear--there does not appear to be a particular reason why a Vulcan should ever have to actually die, as long as there are more than two of them around; but die they do.
But it makes sense that there would be pitfalls in, say, harboring some loved one's katra, or mind-melding with every Tom, Dick, and Harry you meet, even if it does turn out to be some dumbass broken aesop about AIDS where it turns out the fags really were the collective Patient Zero and anal sex is in fact the only way to transmit the plague. (True, Voyager is generally a less entertaining show in most respects, but give Enterprise credit--when it sucks, it doesn't just suck, it profoundly offends the deepest sensibilities. See also: the one where a doctor adheres to a view of natural selection that experienced a major falloff in popularity in May 1945.)
PS: the notion of the katric ark sucks too. Maybe it's more subtle about it, but it breaks the universe as surely as Tom Paris' lizard warp. You know who would be interested in the technology to make little boxes that you can keep your soul in for eternity? Everybody who ever lived. Except maybe that nihilist Dr. Crusher. I pretty much refuse to accept that a technology exists, that provides immortality, with no obvious downsides, that no one gives a shit about.
Now, personally, I prefer an oceanic anoxic event and a geologically rapid, P-T boundary style climate change, at ~2mya, leading to the destruction of most crypto-primates with Vulcans emerging from the selective pressures after the destruction of their arboreal habitat.
Actually, this could be pushed up to the time or Surak or thereabouts. Given that some hypotheses regarding the P-T extinction attribute it to greenhouse gases--and given that there is some concern that a P-T boundary-like event could be looming for us--climate change on Vulcan could easily be anthropogenic. Especially given how thick they appear to be.
Timo said:
The problem with the Surak society being opposed to Vulcan mysticism is that it leaves unexplained why the Romulans, who reject Surakism, appear to have nonetheless broken all their staffs and drowned all their books. It always made more sense to me that esoteric Surakism was where stuff like telepathy--and even the possibility of immortality--came from. I do agree that it's obviously been regulated heavily among the general population, for reasons not entirely clear--there does not appear to be a particular reason why a Vulcan should ever have to actually die, as long as there are more than two of them around; but die they do.
But it makes sense that there would be pitfalls in, say, harboring some loved one's katra, or mind-melding with every Tom, Dick, and Harry you meet, even if it does turn out to be some dumbass broken aesop about AIDS where it turns out the fags really were the collective Patient Zero and anal sex is in fact the only way to transmit the plague. (True, Voyager is generally a less entertaining show in most respects, but give Enterprise credit--when it sucks, it doesn't just suck, it profoundly offends the deepest sensibilities. See also: the one where a doctor adheres to a view of natural selection that experienced a major falloff in popularity in May 1945.)
PS: the notion of the katric ark sucks too. Maybe it's more subtle about it, but it breaks the universe as surely as Tom Paris' lizard warp. You know who would be interested in the technology to make little boxes that you can keep your soul in for eternity? Everybody who ever lived. Except maybe that nihilist Dr. Crusher. I pretty much refuse to accept that a technology exists, that provides immortality, with no obvious downsides, that no one gives a shit about.
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In the novels, perhaps (so they have to go steal their wizards from Vulcan) - but on screen, Romulans are the ones to come up with the more innovative ways of using mind powers. They have telepathically controlled ships, telepathic rape assistants, galactic conquest schemes that could only have been thought up by a wizard of Saruman's caliber...
Besides, it would be more or less natural to assume that the side with the powerful wizards wins, while the side without them is kicked off the planet. If the Surakians then take the logical step of executing their vets, mind power abuse suffers a galactic setback.
Hmh? The only time we have seen a katra successfully transferred to a body that was healthier than the one it started out with was when a Genesis device helped rejuvenate (or at least repair) the original body. There might be profound rejection issues if one tried to transplant one's 300-year-old katra to the random youngster one just bought, or even to the mindless clone one carefully nurtured. Not a great way to perpetuate one's existence.
Katric arks and the like don't seem to offer complete satisfaction to the customer, as Archer didn't quite become Surak. Unless that was another compatibility issue, it seems that what survives in those boxes is just a set of fond memories, not a coherent personality as such. Photo albums are fine and well, but I'd think there are more convenient models available now than this early Flintstone box style.
Really, the ability to upload a copy of your brain contents at timepoint T is only a good way to immortality if one can find compatible and willing recipients. Donors might be willing, yes, but recipients probably would have issues. Perhaps an explanation to the constant state of war on planet Vulcan?
Timo Saloniemi
WHy is it not the case the complete mentation goes into the vrekatra? The example of Archer having Surak's katra forced on him may not be a typical example. Transfers as in the Vulcan Soul trilogy make be more the norm.
This must be an example of Humor I do not get.
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