How can the JemHadar live from only the White?

[Weyoun Ten]

The Vorta by and large are selfish creatures who don't give the Founders more than lip service - probably a necessary evil in their upbringing because blind obedience would make for poor diplomats and spies. So even the Vorta don't get to hold the kill switch, save for small rations of it that won't see them through a mutinous campaign.

A Vorta in turn doesn't need a kill switch, because any Founder can kill one without physical effort...

Timo Saloniemi

Right and wrong.

Yes, selfish in general unless you have a defective one. Yes, they are quite diplomatic. Yes, they are manipulative aliens that will turn on you and stab you in the back when you least expect it (IE, you trust them and they somehow make you see them as their friend) thanks to the genetic soup. [Damn monkeys]

WRONG, the Vorta have a termination implant in their brain-stem that they HAVE to activate once they fall into enemy hands. < Proven with Weyoun Six.

----

Regarding the Jem'Hadar though, isn't there some kind of saying that they go by? I haven't paid much attention to the quote, but the Jem'Hadar cross me as quite an honorable creation that the Founders made as the backbone of the Dominion.

What if, for the sake of discussion, the Jem'Hadar were like plants? They used some kind of photosynthisest to get the nutrition that they needed? The white is just like fudalizer[spelled wrong] in other words.

 

[Timo]

...But apparently they don't activate it in the general case, as indicated by the numerous Vorta who have survived captivity or being cornered. Which is treason, and goes to show that the Vorta are prone to it.

Weyoun in "To the Death" is the first to admit that the Founders' control over the Jem'Hadar "has been somewhat... overstated". It's rather likely that there are in fact multiple failsafes in place: remote destruct buttons for Jem'Hadar ships, subliminally implanted commands that a Founder can use to render a threatening Jem'Hadar harmless, a limited lifespan for an individual Jem'Hadar, careful indoctrination, perhaps also careful regulation of intellect by chemical means. Very probably, limited ammo, fuel and tactical information given to a warrior or a unit going into the fray. Plus inter-unit rivalry, as seen in "One Little Ship" and to an extent in "To the Death".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Weyoun Ten]

*Forgot to include Lizard Nazi Plant Jem'Hadar

> True. Which, shouldn't that suggests a higher thinking than that of the Jem'Hadar, IE, free will? So wouldn't that mean that The Founders made the Jem'Hadar more blindly faithful than the Vorta viva, as you said, chemical reactions and other many possibilities?

 

[Timo]

The Jem'Hadar do consistently worship one sort of overlord (the Founder) while using their own judgement on whether to worship another (the Vorta). That may be built in somehow, beyond the use of normal psychological indoctrination tricks.

However, the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be able to sense the presence of a Founder particularly well. Certainly they can be ordered to fire at spacecraft that carry Odo, even though they are unwilling to harm Odo and worship him in "To the Death" and other close contact situations. They may call Odo a traitor, but they won't attack him. And even if they did have a means of sensing the presence of a Changeling, it would be a bit much to expect this to tell them whether it's a good Changeling (a Founder) or a bad Changeling (Odo), so their firing at the various ships carrying Odo is more likely to prove the absence of such a sense than the presence of one.

We also have one case of hand-to-hand combat between Odo and the Jem'Hadar, from "The Search", again suggesting the Jem'Hadar may worship Changelings but won't recognize one unless formally introduced first...

Sounds like a case for multiple failsafes, then, because a Founder cannot count on being protected by the Jem'Hadar in all circumstances. He or she (or it?) would have to blow his or her (its?) cover first!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Weyoun Ten]

The Jem'Hadar do consistently worship one sort of overlord (the Founder) while using their own judgement on whether to worship another (the Vorta). That may be built in somehow, beyond the use of normal psychological indoctrination tricks.

However, the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be able to sense the presence of a Founder particularly well. Certainly they can be ordered to fire at spacecraft that carry Odo, even though they are unwilling to harm Odo and worship him in "To the Death" and other close contact situations. They may call Odo a traitor, but they won't attack him. And even if they did have a means of sensing the presence of a Changeling, it would be a bit much to expect this to tell them whether it's a good Changeling (a Founder) or a bad Changeling (Odo), so their firing at the various ships carrying Odo is more likely to prove the absence of such a sense than the presence of one.

We also have one case of hand-to-hand combat between Odo and the Jem'Hadar, from "The Search", again suggesting the Jem'Hadar may worship Changelings but won't recognize one unless formally introduced first...

Sounds like a case for multiple failsafes, then, because a Founder cannot count on being protected by the Jem'Hadar in all circumstances. He or she (or it?) would have to blow his or her (its?) cover first!

Timo Saloniemi

-___-

If Odo is considered a god to the Vorta, which is acknowledged by Weyoun Seven, then he would most certainly be considered a god to the Jem'Hadar. Plus the Jem'Hadar in that episode were ordered to not communicate with the shuttle by Weyoun Seven after Dumar convinced and wormed his way into making Weyoun Seven see it as such and treat it as such. So there was no way the Jem'Hadar could possibly know it to be Odo unless Odo got right in their view screen headsets or beamed aboard. As I said, perhaps the Vorta hold a higher level of thinking and awareness compared to the Jem'Hadar, who are blindly faithful to The Founders.

The Founder sees Odo as a member of its species so automatically, Odo would be seen as a god, a Founder, as well.

Then you gotta think about the Jem'Hadar from The Gamma and the ones from the Alpha. They are two totally different breeds. One recites their loyalty, the other shows it through victory.

 

[TheLobes]

One of my biggest problems with DS9 was that they kept screwing up the Jem Hadar. The whole idea was that they were totally loyal, but every time we actually get to know one its trying to break away from the Dominion. For me, that totally destroyed them as a concept, in much the same way that Voyager ****ed up the Borg.

I dont really care if the white doesnt make much sense, its just a concept used within the show, and its more important for what it says about the Jem Hadar and the Dominion than its validity as an actual substance.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't know...I think that maybe it says more about the conflict between individual will/the soul and genetics, than anything. The Jem'Hadar aren't computer programs, even though the Founders tried to make them that way.

(Actually, you could argue that what they did to the Vorta and Jem'Hadar is as serious a war crime as what they do WITH them.)

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

One of my biggest problems with DS9 was that they kept screwing up the Jem Hadar. The whole idea was that they were totally loyal, but every time we actually get to know one its trying to break away from the Dominion. For me, that totally destroyed them as a concept, in much the same way that Voyager ****ed up the Borg.

I dont really care if the white doesnt make much sense, its just a concept used within the show, and its more important for what it says about the Jem Hadar and the Dominion than its validity as an actual substance.

what about rocks and shoals? he was obedient even though he knew his vorta was conspiring against him

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I think that because of that incident in "Rocks and Shoals" we can learn about the Jem'Hadar. They know full well that they are going to die (but "obedience is victory" and "victory is life"), but they obey their leader. The Jem'Hadar value obedience. Not life. Obedience. Sort of like how the Klingons value "honor" more than anything else. (That and fighting for the sake of.)

 

[Temis the Vorta]

One thing you can usually depend on in an army is loyalty to whoever they are fighting for.

Tell that to Gaddafi.

My take on it is this: the Founders don't trust either the Vorta or Jems, not really. They're solids and all solids are untrustworthy. But they need some kind of military defense and they don't want to throw away Founders' lives on defense.

K-white is the only food the Jems can eat - it's a food, they just call it a "drug," I dunno, to make the Jems sound scarier? Because Founders don't really get the difference (what do changelings eat, for that matter?) Regardless, to control the white gives Founders total control over the Jems. It has its drawbacks but the greater risk would be not exerting total control over the Jems.

The Vorta have more free will and might rebel or act in their self-interest rather than the Founders' - Keevan did just that - but they're pretty much helpless without the Jems. The antipathy between Vorta and Jems is almost certainly manufactured, to ensure that they don't get any bright ideas about joining forces and rebelling.

The Dominion military is a perfect expression of total paranoia.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

HOW can this not be a LOLcat?

 

[TheLobes]

One of my biggest problems with DS9 was that they kept screwing up the Jem Hadar. The whole idea was that they were totally loyal, but every time we actually get to know one its trying to break away from the Dominion. For me, that totally destroyed them as a concept, in much the same way that Voyager ****ed up the Borg.

I dont really care if the white doesnt make much sense, its just a concept used within the show, and its more important for what it says about the Jem Hadar and the Dominion than its validity as an actual substance.

what about rocks and shoals? he was obedient even though he knew his vorta was conspiring against him

Thats true, but at the same time that Jem was still pretty fed up with the Dominion, and if I remember correctly (im not sure I do) a lot of the other Jems were not so interested in loyalty. Even if they were totally loyal though, there still far, far more disloyal Jems.

 

[Timo]

I thought that was the intention of the writers all along - to show that no matter what perverse measures the Dominion takes, its reign of terror rests on an unsound foundation, and its terror troops are a prime example of how precarious the whole system is.

K-white is the only food the Jems can eat

That would seem to be the one argument we can categorically disregard (if not disprove): the Jem'hadar can and will eat all sorts of food, as in "The Abandoned" and "Hippocratic Oath", and the White comes on top of all that. (And then the cherry comes atop the White.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Weyoun Ten]

Nazi Lizard Plants. It must be the only explanation!

 

[Nerys Myk]

HOW can this not be a LOLcat?

I can haz Europe?