How can Kirk ever truly trust Starfleet again?

[The Rock]

They established that this universe's Section 31 is officially a branch of Starfleet (unlike the prime universe's Section 31, where we could draw our own conclusions as to whether it was a real part of Starfleet or some rogue group).

In STID, Admiral Marcus and his crew had no problem wanting to destroy the Enterprise and killing everyone on board (he even admitted that that was his original plan all along).

So after Admiral Marcus and the USS Vengeance is defeated, the Enterprise embarks on her five-year mission. My question is this: How can Kirk ever truly trust Starfleet again from not wanting to kill him again for some other reason? I mean isn't he gonna be really paranoid now?

I had gotten the idea from STID that Starfleet is a morally corrupt organization in this universe (being that Section 31 is pretty much Starfleet Intelligence in this universe).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I had gotten the idea from STID that Starfleet is a morally corrupt organization in this universe (being that Section 31 is pretty much Starfleet Intelligence in this universe).

Considering that in the Prime Universe in TOS a commodore offered to sweep Kirk possibly murdering someone under the rug if he took a desk job and all the corrupt and/or evil admirals running around, Starfleet has always had corrupt elements within it.

 

[The Rock]

I had gotten the idea from STID that Starfleet is a morally corrupt organization in this universe (being that Section 31 is pretty much Starfleet Intelligence in this universe).

Considering that in the Prime Universe in TOS a commodore offered to sweep Kirk possibly murdering someone under the rug if he took a desk job and all the corrupt and/or evil admirals running around, Starfleet has always had corrupt elements within it.

But in STID, Starfleet wanted to murder Kirk and destroy the Enterprise!

 

[SalvorHardin]

I'm sure Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise let everyone in Starfleet know what happened and what Marcus did.

One could easily assume that in the time after Khan went back to the freezer there were investigations launched, arrests & trials took place and most if not all of the corrupt elements left were caught.

For all we know Section 31 does not exist anymore at this point.

But in STID, Starfleet wanted to murder Kirk and destroy the Enterprise!

Marcus did, after Kirk didn't do as expected and for the specific reason of helping start his war. He might have been the head but that doesn't make everyone on Starfleet corrupt or in on his plan. Which plan is useless now since he's dead and everyone would know about what happened.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I had gotten the idea from STID that Starfleet is a morally corrupt organization in this universe (being that Section 31 is pretty much Starfleet Intelligence in this universe).

Considering that in the Prime Universe in TOS a commodore offered to sweep Kirk possibly murdering someone under the rug if he took a desk job and all the corrupt and/or evil admirals running around, Starfleet has always had corrupt elements within it.

But in STID, Starfleet wanted to murder Kirk and destroy the Enterprise!

^ and in Star Trek INS, an Admiral signed off on Ru'afo ordering ships to attack the Enterprise-E and potentially destroy it. Admirals and Starfleet command are bent and corrupt in both universes.

 

[The Rock]

Here's the thing though.

I believe that in this universe, Section 31 and Starfleet are in bed with each other. I think they are pretty much one and the same. I think a bunch of people in Starfleet wanted to start a war with the Klingons. I got the impression that Section 31 is their Starfleet Intelligence division in this universe.

I don't think it was just Admiral Marcus and his crew that wanted to start a war with the Klingons and murder Kirk. I firmly believe that pretty much all the higher-ups in Starfleet signed off on it.

 

[Timo]

For all we know Section 31 does not exist anymore at this point.

Hmm.. S31 appeared to be a secret weapons-developing department only. Why would it have to suffer from the fallout of Marcus' defeat? Surely Starfleet will keep on developing weapons in secret - and it's not as if any of the developers are ex-Nazis or anything. (Not after the loss of Khan, anyway.)

In the DS9 universe, S31 had political and military aims. In the STID universe, we hear of no aims: S31 is just a generic tool for Starfleet, no different from a laundry services unit.

Whether Khan did his supposed operations for Marcus under S31 or not, we don't really know, now do we?

I don't think it was just Admiral Marcus and his crew that wanted to start a war with the Klingons and murder Kirk. I firmly believe that pretty much all the higher-ups in Starfleet signed off on it.

Pike didn't look as if he was in the know. Perhaps Marcus had gathered all the naysayers into the briefing-cum-execution in good understanding with Khan? (Odd that he would also invite Kirk there if he needed a naive young skipper to carry out his war-triggering mission, though.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SalvorHardin]

For all we know Section 31 does not exist anymore at this point.

Hmm.. S31 appeared to be a secret weapons-developing department only. Why would it have to suffer from the fallout of Marcus' defeat? Surely Starfleet will keep on developing weapons in secret - and it's not as if any of the developers are ex-Nazis or anything. (Not after the loss of Khan, anyway.)

In the DS9 universe, S31 had political and military aims. In the STID universe, we hear of no aims: S31 is just a generic tool for Starfleet, no different from a laundry services unit.

Whether Khan did his supposed operations for Marcus under S31 or not, we don't really know, now do we?

I suppose it depends on how Section 31 was structured and how many of its members were in bed with Marcus.
Maybe, after finishing its investigation, Starfleet decided to disband it for PR reasons if nothing else.

They could continue to develop their secret projects with new people under a new organization.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They established that this universe's Section 31 is officially a branch of Starfleet (unlike the prime universe's Section 31, where we could draw our own conclusions as to whether it was a real part of Starfleet or some rogue group).

In STID, Admiral Marcus and his crew had no problem wanting to destroy the Enterprise and killing everyone on board (he even admitted that that was his original plan all along).

So after Admiral Marcus and the USS Vengeance is defeated, the Enterprise embarks on her five-year mission. My question is this: How can Kirk ever truly trust Starfleet again from not wanting to kill him again for some other reason? I mean isn't he gonna be really paranoid now?

Probably. Which is why he won't be quite so surprised when Tracey goes nuts on Omega, or when Garth of Izar goes nuts on Antos, when Daystrom/Daystrom's iPod goes crazy on the Enterprise, and when Cartwright goes crazy and tries to kill everyone.

He AND Spock will probably have a backup plan handy in case Starfleet or one of its officers decides to throw him under a bus.

 

[Franklin]

I guess Kirk could realize it was nothing personal.

Marcus had a model of the Vengeance in his office, so its existence wasn't a secret. Maybe the original reason for the Vengeance (an odd name for a peace-loving organization like Starfleet) was in case any more Nero-type starships appeared. Marcus, however, intended to use the Vengeance in an all-or-nothing war with the Klingons all along (not Starfleet's idea). I imagine if Captain Pike had lived to command the Enterprise and got in Marcus's way, he'd have tried to get rid of him, too.

 

[Opus]

They established that this universe's Section 31 is officially a branch of Starfleet (unlike the prime universe's Section 31, where we could draw our own conclusions as to whether it was a real part of Starfleet or some rogue group).

Here's what I think is fun about the new alt-universe - With the introduction of Nero and the destruction of The Kelvin, Section 31 could have possibly thought they needed to have a more active involvement in Starfleet Operations. Then with the events of Vulcan's destruction, they began a more rigorous weapons development program. It's an interesting twist in this new timeline, and I think it works.

They could continue to develop their secret projects with new people under a new organization.

"Section 31? Never heard of it. We're Section... uh... 32... yeah..."

 

[Phily B]

they didn't establish that.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Forget Starfleet. He should give up on the Federation as a whole. His ship got the bejeezus beaten out of it right on the front door of the Capital, and no one said as much as "boo". Maybe *he* should consider defecting to Qo'nos.

 

[The Wormhole]

They established that this universe's Section 31 is officially a branch of Starfleet (unlike the prime universe's Section 31, where we could draw our own conclusions as to whether it was a real part of Starfleet or some rogue group).

For all we know, they're still a rogue organization, just enjoying a better influx of resources due to having Starfleet's Chief of Staff in their back pocket. Now that Marcus is out of the picture, they're probably back hiding in the shadows.

And besides, Kirk Prime's trust in Starfleet wasn't shattered despite running into a crazy captain or evil admiral every three weeks.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Watching Section 31 in DS9 and ENT I am certain that Section 31 is apart of Starfleet. A black ops/special forces branch that Starfleet doesn't advertise it has. With the actions Section 31 carries out they have to be sanctioned by some form of authority. They aren't some random self appointed organization that operates on behalf of Starfleet.

Section 31 is a group that carries out projects for Starfleet that Starfleet Command does not want anyone knowing about. The coy answer they gave Sisko in "Inquisition" about not wanting to confirm nor deny the existence of such an organization speaks volumes.

 

[talfe'anhar]

Here's the thing though.

I believe that in this universe, Section 31 and Starfleet are in bed with each other. I think they are pretty much one and the same. I think a bunch of people in Starfleet wanted to start a war with the Klingons. I got the impression that Section 31 is their Starfleet Intelligence division in this universe.

I don't think it was just Admiral Marcus and his crew that wanted to start a war with the Klingons and murder Kirk. I firmly believe that pretty much all the higher-ups in Starfleet signed off on it.

Why would they want to get rid of Kirk? It reminds me of JFK. The whole conspiracy theory about how they wanted to get rid of Kennedy because they thought he was a communist. But why would they want to get rid of Kirk? And why would they go ahead and give him the Enterprise and send him off to explore the galaxy. Do they have someone waiting out there to do him in?

 

[BillJ]

Watching Section 31 in DS9 and ENT I am certain that Section 31 is apart of Starfleet. A black ops/special forces branch that Starfleet doesn't advertise it has. With the actions Section 31 carries out they have to be sanctioned by some form of authority. They aren't some random self appointed organization that operates on behalf of Starfleet.

Section 31 is a group that carries out projects for Starfleet that Starfleet Command does not want anyone knowing about. The coy answer they gave Sisko in "Inquisition" about not wanting to confirm nor deny the existence of such an organization speaks volumes.

Last I heard they were an independent organization in the Prime timeline and their authority is granted in the Federation charter.

 

[ComicGuy89]

Here's the thing though.

I believe that in this universe, Section 31 and Starfleet are in bed with each other. I think they are pretty much one and the same. I think a bunch of people in Starfleet wanted to start a war with the Klingons. I got the impression that Section 31 is their Starfleet Intelligence division in this universe.

I don't think it was just Admiral Marcus and his crew that wanted to start a war with the Klingons and murder Kirk. I firmly believe that pretty much all the higher-ups in Starfleet signed off on it.

I don't think there's any insinuation that Section 31 are officially part of Starfleet in this universe anymore than in the prime universe.

Admirals and Starfleet members themselves have tried to incite war before, as seen in The Undiscovered Country (which I personally think STiD borrowed more from compared to Wrath of Khan).

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Watching Section 31 in DS9 and ENT I am certain that Section 31 is apart of Starfleet. A black ops/special forces branch that Starfleet doesn't advertise it has. With the actions Section 31 carries out they have to be sanctioned by some form of authority. They aren't some random self appointed organization that operates on behalf of Starfleet.

Section 31 is a group that carries out projects for Starfleet that Starfleet Command does not want anyone knowing about. The coy answer they gave Sisko in "Inquisition" about not wanting to confirm nor deny the existence of such an organization speaks volumes.

Last I heard they were an independent organization in the Prime timeline and their authority is granted in the Federation charter.

Their authority is granted in the Starfleet charter. Article 14, Section 31. To quote Harris, "there are a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat". This is the "Earth" Starfleet Charter, not the Federation one. We can assume that when the coalition of planets and later the UFP was formed. Section 31 remained apart of Starfleet. Makes sense when you think about it. When Odo was given the morphogenic virus it was when he was on Earth at Starfleet Command. The only people who had knowledge or access to him would be Starfleet personnel. Sleeper agents like Reed or undercover agents like Sloan. It's also curious to point out that of all the Section 31 members we have seen, they have all been human. I think Section 31's real object is to protect Earth at any and all costs. Sure Sloan says his actions are to protect the Federation. However it is Earth that is not only the HQ for Starfleet but also the capital for the Federation.


In STID Thomas Harewood, a Starfleet officer. Assist John Harrison/Khan in blowing up the Kelvin Memorial Archive. Which Admiral Marcus later address as a secret Section 31 facility. That means that Harewood had to have been a member of Section 31 in order to get access to the secret basement, and that Starfleet and S31 are definitely connected. I imagine knowledge of Section 31 is probably classified above top secret clearance in Starfleet.

 

[The Wormhole]

I imagine the Kelvin Memorial building is owned by Section 31, might even have Section 31 agents in top level positions, but the majority of people there, including Harewood are just ordinary Starfleet officers unaware of Section 31 or what it really is.