How brilliant are the Founders?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by SimpleLogic, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. SimpleLogic

    SimpleLogic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    So I am re-watching Ds9 and I am up to the big reveal when we notice that Dr. Bashir is a changeling. So it made me wonder how smart the Founders must be, either on their own, or with the dissemination of knowledge throughout the great link. Being able to look like and sound like someone is one thing but being able to be a Doctor is quite another. I get that since they engineer their own subservient solids then they must know about anatomy but I still wonder how long it took them to learn, at the very least, every medical thing Dr. Bashir knew? Then you might say, maybe that guy was just pulling a "catch me if you can" type thing and faked it while having his underling Doctors on the station take care of most major surgeries, but that doesn't seem like something the Founders would do.

    So I guess my question is are the Founders just that smart to completely do anything the person they replaced can do, or are they just really well trained intelligence agents who get by on generalized knowledge on who they replace and what they are doing?
     
  2. kkt

    kkt Captain Captain

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    It even goes beyond knowing how to be a doctor... the Founders are probably more advanced in some ways, or have different procedures in others... Changling Bashier not only has to be a doctor, he has to be a Federation doctor trained as they do in Starfleet Medical. Could a U.S. doctor from 2017 successfully pose as a doctor from 1917? Not know about antibiotics, recognize polio but not know what to do about it?

    However, making it easier for the Founders, if one Founder has a body of knowledge, they could probably link and transfer it all rapidly to another Founder who was selected for an undercover mission.
     
  3. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Dominion does seem highly adept at intelligence/information gathering and I'd suspect that the Founders are a key part of that, whilst I'm sure the Dominion would be more than capable of collecting data from Federation computer systems and have some way to quickly implant that information into the 'Undercover Founders' to allow them to carry out their role. Not only would Founder-Bashir need to know everything about being a Starfleet doctor but he'd also need to know everything about being Julian Bashir as well, seeing as how he has to convince his friends, colleagues and staff that he is the genuine article. Who know how long Bashir was under surveillance before he was replaced. For all we know Kukalaka was watching his every move for weeks.
     
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I would argue that imitating a doctor would be one of the easiest things for a Founder to do. Their abilities to replicate life down to the tiniest details assumes the ability to study such life exhaustively
     
  5. Leviathan

    Leviathan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ...or RepliBashir just let a lot of folks snuff it and chalked it up to a bad couple weeks.
     
  6. SimpleLogic

    SimpleLogic Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Very interesting point.
     
  7. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    So brilliant, they've made an interstellar porter that is more legendary than the most rare Belgian abbey brew.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    They are obviously intelligent both in the way they interact with their slave species and empire, as well as infiltration, deception, and an apparent ability to understand the faultlines within and between societies and states thus being able to manipulate other powers to their advantage.

    I'd say they are quite intelligent make excellent use of their assets and shape shifting abilities and are all around formidable enemies of the federation.
     
  9. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For an alternative hypothesis, it could of course also mean that by the 24th century, (intelligent) medical equipment is so advanced that in fact it does most of the work + diagnosing, so that even a layman could appear as a reasonably capable physician if he plays his role wel-- this of course would be a secret well guarded by the medical branch of Starfleet :)

    Surgeries might be a problem, yes, but how often do we see Julian do surgery, in fact?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  10. Aaron McGuire

    Aaron McGuire Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The thing that I've always wondered is why didn't he just kill Sisko during surgery in "Rapture?" Then the changling could be like ":shrug:Oops, sorry guys lost him on the table :shrug:"
     
  11. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Straight out forgot about that one, 'famous last words' and such :)

    Generally, I'd say the Founders are concerned with the larger picture, and underestimate the possible pivotal importance of some individual 'solids', as they think the solids are so far below them. The founder probably wanted to stay longer in his role as Bashir, and 'accidentally' losing Sisko on the surgery table probably would have lead to investigations and such as a matter of protocol.

    Also, it's questionable if the founder could have killed Sisko, even if he'd wanted to. The Prophets still had plans for him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  12. Jetboogieman

    Jetboogieman Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'd say their intelligence is highly overrated given they had every advantage in the Dominion War, had at one point subverted several governments... I'd say they're not nearly as competent as they'd like to give themselves credit for considering they lost.

    But hey, it never hurts to also have a bunch of weirdos that live in a wormhole that talk funny get rid of 2000 ships for you either.
     
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  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Or as Chief Medical Officer he just ordered people to do things for him.