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Horatio Hornblower: Does Discovery need a more TOS-style spirit of seafaring adventure?

INACTIVERedDwarf

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I recently saw a couple of interesting commentaries on Star Trek, and it got me thinking about Discovery from another angle. Maybe it could do with a bit more of the Victorian explorer attitude that inspired some elements of The Original Series. Kirk was a cunning commander and enlightened patriot, admired by his crew. Like Hornblower or Aubrey he outsmarts opponents and is utterly loyal to his civilization's ideals. Lower decks is good and all, but maybe Burnham needs to be someone who actually commands, for the show to feel like it is really about a ship on the frontier, in competition with other empires?

A BBC documentary on science fiction from a few years ago compared Star Trek to Victorian high seas adventure, and revisited Nicholas Meyer's famous comments on it's links with Horatio Hornblower. The argument was that fundamentally, Kirk was Victorian hero on a 'civilizing mission', citing his speech to the natives of Organia about providing "hospitals, schools, infrastructure, farming technology, you can feed ten where you could feed one before". The mission was updated from the Victorian agenda, to the more universally acceptable standards of human rights, freedom of thought, democracy and progressivism.

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I recently saw a clip in which British national-treasure Stephen Fry explained that he used Star Trek in an academic thesis. He showed how Kirk, Spock and McCoy adhered to the classical idea of emotion (McCoy), intellect (Spock), and synthesis of the two (Kirk). But more interesting than this now widely accepted idea, was when he took this reading further, arguing that many episodes actually involve this playing out on a planetary scale, with Kirk encountering a civilization in which one force or the other had been taken to an extreme (i.e. a computer ruling them with rational absolutism, or an anarchy being ruled by barbaric fears); with Kirk restoring balance between Apollonian and Dionysian.

But all this might require something that current TV is very wary of; acceptance of interference in other cultures, or acceptance that different social systems might be in competition, and that there might be an ethical case for favouring one culture over another. What do you think? Is this angle too controversial? Or is that an essential conceit of TOS that DSC could rediscover?

Is some kind of evangelistic Star Trek perhaps appropriate when universal human rights and freedom of conscious are big issues around the world?
 
With Burnham having her rank restored, if not her position on the Shenzou, I think she'll be in situations where she'll be able to be in command.

I don't like the idea of Discovery being on a "civilizing mission". That strikes me as wanting to remake the galaxy in the Federation's image. Which is exactly what the Klingons feared in Star Trek VI. I think it would be controversial because the Federation is seen as a stand-in for the United States so it's like the United States wanting to remake the world in its own image. In 2018, that opens up a whole can of worms that can lead directly into a slippery slope. While I think it's great for Discovery to embark on more "sea-faring" adventure, I don't think they should go for taming the galaxy and teaching the "primitives" our ways.

There's a dynamic in DSC like the one in TOS but while the dynamic in TOS is between intellect and emotion with the Captain taking both into account, I think the dynamic in DSC -- unlike TOS -- is between restraint (Saru) and action (Burnham) with the Captain (whoever it is) taking both into account. Georgiou was genuinely this example of a Captain. Lorca was this example out of necessity and whatever happened to fit his agenda.
 
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As relevant cultural commentary, Star Trek is over - even a lot of fans didn't get or rejected the critical content of STID, which was the only serious attempt to do this sort of thing in Trek for over a decade.

Other shows and stories do it better, now, because they're not as conservative and elliptical about it as Trek is.

All things must pass.
 
Other shows and stories do it better, now, because they're not as conservative and elliptical about it as Trek is.

How is Star Trek conservative? It's not Pro-Trump, it's not Pro-Bush. I don't think it's Pro-Reagan. It's not Pro-Republican.

If you mean creatively, that would be VOY and the first two seasons of ENT following the TOS/TNG formula.
 
That would be...just about all of it for two decades or so.

Trek is very conventional, very mainstream, very much unwilling to challenge modern viewers in any substantial sense. It's regarded by its owners as a tent pole franchise and, potentially, a great big cash cow going forward...if they can only find and dial in the commercial formula that will do it. That is what they're looking for.
 
Season 1 couldn't be a direct copy of that kind of swashbuckling adventure. Burnham lost her mentor, but gradually became a mentor herself. (is the long arc really for Tilly?), but whatever anyone's intentions were, Burnham was not the star character of the show. That was Lorca. As much as this was going to be a belowdecks show, and on some levels it was, it was also about how possibly the smartest-con job in Starfleet history got a Mirror Universe captain back home to confront his destiny.

The Federation doesn't seem to force the hard sale on many civilizations. It doesn't have to. It's more or a coca-colonization, in this case a root-beer-colonization. "Look at all this stuff you'll get if you want to be in our sphere of influence. It's free! Or you could go hang out with the Klingons and enjoy worms and suffering and drinks made out of blood.. whatever. One thing, we do have certain guidelines we try to live by. Would you mind if we send a few books your way?"
The Federation continues to add and combine strengths while the original modus operandi keeps on working.
 
Trek is very conventional, very mainstream, very much unwilling to challenge modern viewers in any substantial sense. It's regarded by its owners as a tent pole franchise and, potentially, a great big cash cow going forward...if they can only find and dial in the commercial formula that will do it. That is what they're looking for.

I think Star Trek could push boundaries further than it has. And, unlike you, that's what I think DSC should do. As long as it doesn't turn into a "Make the Galaxy Great Again" piece (which would be ironic since the current mindset would be more like "Federation First"). That's not the direction I'd want them to push boundaries in. If they went the other direction, showing the Federation can't just reshape everything in its own image, that would be better.
 
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That would be...just about all of it for two decades or so.

Trek is very conventional, very mainstream, very much unwilling to challenge modern viewers in any substantial sense. It's regarded by its owners as a tent pole franchise and, potentially, a great big cash cow going forward...if they can only find and dial in the commercial formula that will do it. That is what they're looking for.

I thought it was strange they were so aggressive in promoting the show's diversity but so unwilling to have the show actually say anything. Even if the diversity marketing was financially calculated, once you've decided to risk alienating conservative viewers, why back so far away from it?
 
I thought it was strange they were so aggressive in promoting the show's diversity but so unwilling to have the show actually say anything. Even if the diversity marketing was financially calculated, once you've decided to risk alienating conservative viewers, why back so far away from it?

I think showing diversity and not commenting on it within the show itself, as if it's a normal thing, is the better way to go. To do otherwise would imply that having diversity isn't normal.

No one should care that Stamets is gay or Burnham is a black woman. It's distressing that some people even care today and start complaining about "Social Justice Warriors!!!!!"
 
Other shows and stories do it better, now, because they're not as conservative and elliptical about it as Trek is.

All things must pass.

Trek is very conventional, very mainstream, very much unwilling to challenge modern viewers in any substantial sense. It's regarded by its owners as a tent pole franchise and, potentially, a great big cash cow going forward...if they can only find and dial in the commercial formula that will do it. That is what they're looking for.

The current showrunners decided for Star Trek to be that - in it's current iteration.
There is nothing inherintly conservative in Star Trek. Unlike, say, in Star Wars, which is forever locked in a good-vs.-evil conflict using familiar elements, Star Trek - as a franchise - essentially is built on innovation!

In fact, the severe lack of innovation is what led to the shrining of significance of Trek in the first place. But that isn't part of the franchise - that's just the way the current producers handle things. Star Trek always thrived when it was leading in innovation in terms of storytelling, format and content. And it has every chance to become that again: The same show, just better written, could be not only contemporary, but actual genre defining.

That it isn't is a shame. But the reason behind that is not the IP. Star Trek as an IP has "exploration of new ideas" right there in it's premise.
 
As relevant cultural commentary, Star Trek is over - even a lot of fans didn't get or rejected the critical content of STID, which was the only serious attempt to do this sort of thing in Trek for over a decade.

Oh HELL naw. Bob Orci and his truther conspiracy bullshit commentary in Into Darkness fall right there flat on it's face right as it deserves. Not mentioning it actually does the movie a service.

Serious contemporary cultural commentary would be more than welcomed. The Captain America franchise did show that it's quite possible to do that even in a big blockbuster entertainment franchise.

But whenever a self-proclaimed truth-seeker and Trump supporter writes political commentary, it's no wonder if it turns out to be utter shit. Especially if it happens in an ideologically more progressive franchise like in Star Trek.
 
Oh HELL naw. Bob Orci and his truther conspiracy bullshit commentary in Into Darkness fall right there flat on it's face right as it deserves.

Sorry, you're wrong.

What the movie is about, is Starfleet and the Federation government's willingness to suspend legal protections and human rights, going so far as to track down and execute presumed Federation nationals wihout trial on foreign soil - and, ultimately, Kirk's refusal to go along with that.

Which had more to do with what's wrong with the United States of America, if nowhere else, in this century than anything else Star Trek has done in ages. It took some balls for them to go with that storyline.

So don't give me the fucking "Bob Orci" whine this time around. I don't really care whether you like him and his peculiar opinions or not.

The current showrunners decided for Star Trek to be that - in it's current iteration.

Yeah, once again - bullshit. Trek hasn't been any better than this for a long time - and that includes the hallowed DS9, which was really pretty weak tea by any contemporary televsion standards outside of the family hour then or now.

It's just a big old slow-moving TV space opera that takes itself more seriously than it has a right to in these latter days, urged on by a fanbase that's willing to confuse it with some mass-market Bhagavad Gita.
 
Sorry, you're wrong.

No, you're wrong. The entire commentary of Into Darkness has Bob Orcis crypto-truther conspiracy shit all over it, and he even admitted so in interviews that it was important for him to include. All other "commentary" in this movie is arbitrary bullshit solely there to support the larger truther-theme.

And you know this. You just deliberately try to expell that thought from your mind. But that doesn't stop it from being true.

http://freebeacon.com/blog/the-director-of-the-next-star-trek-film-roberto-orci-is-a-911-truther/
https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2013/0...darkness-is-a-crypto-truther-conspiracy-movie

And this has shit-all to do with "Bob Orci-whining" - this is an objective and true description of what was actually put in the movie. Even if it is so embarrasingly humiliating that something like that actually ever happened - it did. It's in the movie. In fact, it's what the larger theme of the movie is about.

Ignoring that, while obviously improving the experience of watching the movie, is still negating of what actually had happened.
 
I think showing diversity and not commenting on it within the show itself, as if it's a normal thing, is the better way to go. To do otherwise would imply that having diversity isn't normal.

No one should care that Stamets is gay or Burnham is a black woman. It's distressing that some people even care today and start complaining about "Social Justice Warriors!!!!!"

Sorry, wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I thought it was strange that the show didn't comment on its own diversity, but that it was strange that it avoided saying anything of note about *any* of the issues it raised, from PTSD to sexual assault to terrorism. I understand that being apolitical appeals to the bean counters, but why take a progressive stand on diversity and absolutely nothing else?
 
Sorry, wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I thought it was strange that the show didn't comment on its own diversity, but that it was strange that it avoided saying anything of note about *any* of the issues it raised, from PTSD to sexual assault to terrorism. I understand that being apolitical appeals to the bean counters, but why take a progressive stand on diversity and absolutely nothing else?

Oh! Okay, got it.
 
Because, while a progressive stance on diversity issues is right and admirable, it is also market-tested safe with the mass audience. You can use it to sell hybrid hatchbacks and cornflakes now.

Part of me thinks you're not giving the writers enough blame, but maybe I'm not giving the bean counters enough credit.
 
Sorry, wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I thought it was strange that the show didn't comment on its own diversity, but that it was strange that it avoided saying anything of note about *any* of the issues it raised, from PTSD to sexual assault to terrorism. I understand that being apolitical appeals to the bean counters, but why take a progressive stand on diversity and absolutely nothing else?

Oh, come now it took a number of other bold stances, like "genocide is bad!" and "we shouldn't enslave possibly intelligent beings!"
 
You know if they want each season cojuld have it's own unique theme and style. So maybe one year they re a little Horatio Hornblower. I would like to see them do a comedy season and maybe one year they do a conspiracy themed year and so forth. This new season seems to be about science and faith and you got Pike and the Enterprise so maybe it should feel kind of retro-60's Trek. Next year they explore a region of unknown space and you got something like 2001 going on with the feel of the show.


Jason
 
You know if they want each season cojuld have it's own unique theme and style. So maybe one year they re a little Horatio Hornblower. I would like to see them do a comedy season and maybe one year they do a conspiracy themed year and so forth. This new season seems to be about science and faith and you got Pike and the Enterprise so maybe it should feel kind of retro-60's Trek. Next year they explore a region of unknown space and you got something like 2001 going on with the feel of the show.

It's a great idea I'm sure CBS won't let them do.

Networks are, by nature, conservative. If a show is working (e.g., has decent ratings), they don't want to do anything to mess with "the formula." If a show isn't working, they may futz with it every season, and eventually can it entirely.
 
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