Honor Killing???????????

[RobertScorpio]

I am sure by now that we have all read the story about the new york woman being brutally killed by her husband; he cut her head off. She had filed for divorce and, if reports are correct, he did it because in their society, when a woman demands a divorce, it brings shame to the family....

As we all know, Worf claimed his killing of Durass was an act of honor. True, Durass did take Kaylar's life, but Worf, IMO, got away with murder. Another example of Picard's lack of discipline for his senior stall (Just calling as I see it)

Other scifi franchises have had so called 'honor' killing as part of the plot. And now we have this real life incident. Can you give examples of other so calld 'deaths due to honor' in the scifi/fantasy realms? And if so, what was your opinion of it then...and now??? There is no right or wrong answer. I just want to see how fans, like us, see this subject matter in scifi/fanatasy franchises

Rob

 

[Hermiod]

^Worf did not "get away" with murder. K'Ehleyr was Worf's mate. That doesn't mean "girlfriend" or "girl he was sleeping with on the side". It was a commitment.

Duras murdered her. Under Klingon law, Worf is entitled to challenge Duras to combat to the death in answer to that. Worf did and he won. He did so on a Klingon vessel in apparently neutral space. Worf's only crime against the Federation was leaving the Enterprise without permission.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^Worf did not "get away" with murder. K'Ehleyr was Worf's mate. That doesn't mean "girlfriend" or "girl he was sleeping with on the side". It was a commitment.

Duras murdered her. Under Klingon law, Worf is entitled to challenge Duras to combat to the death in answer to that. Worf did and he won. He did so on a Klingon vessel in apparently neutral space. Worf's only crime against the Federation was leaving the Enterprise without permission.

I see it totally different. Worf is no different than anyone else in StarFleet. Nor is anyone in the real military. If some Japanese-American left his ship, as Worf did, went to a japanese vessel and killed another Japanese guy for honor, he would still face charges even if the Japanese Navy didn't press charges...

What if it had been Riker who was her 'mate' (and remember, they were NOT married...that was maid clear when she came aboard the first time) But let us say Riker was married to her, and Durass killed her, and Riker went over there to Durass's ship and killed him 'for honor'. Would Riker be denied this special right simply because he isn't a klingon? If Riker was denied that right then there would be no equal protection under the law.

Worf, a federation citizen, murdered Durass in cold blood, whether or not the Klingons see it that way doesn't matter; he isn't afforded special rights simple because he comes from that heritage. It would apply a seperate set of laws and the Federation Supreme court would deny that obsurd defense...

No..its just another example of Picard not having a backbone and really dolling out real discipline...

Oh..and in real life? Some muslim groups are already saying this guy should be sent to the middle east to face trial. Ummmmm...no. He did it here in our country and should face justice here...

Rob

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Worf, a federation citizen, murdered Durass in cold blood

No, Worf challenged Duras (according to legal Klingon tradition), then he and Duras fought openly in hand to hand combat. Therefore Duras was not killed in cold blood.

If Worf had gone over there and immediately vaporized Duras with a phaser shot, then yes, that would be killing him in cold blood. But since Duras fought back, this does not apply.

It's not the same as the "honor killing" mentioned here. The NY woman *was* killed in cold blood. She was unarmed, didn't fight back. Not so with Duras.

As for why Starfleet would allow Worf to basically get away with it: It's probably part of the terms of the treaty of alliance with the Klingons.

 

[Hermiod]

I see it totally different. Worf is no different than anyone else in StarFleet. Nor is anyone in the real military. If some Japanese-American left his ship, as Worf did, went to a japanese vessel and killed another Japanese guy for honor, he would still face charges even if the Japanese Navy didn't press charges...

You just made the number one mistake Star Trek fans make - judging 24th century behaviour by 20th century values. (Number two is thinking Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. )

Worf did face charges, for the crime of desertion he committed against the Federation. Picard chose not to punish him severely for that.

What if it had been Riker who was her 'mate' (and remember, they were NOT married...that was maid clear when she came aboard the first time) But let us say Riker was married to her, and Durass killed her, and Riker went over there to Durass's ship and killed him 'for honor'. Would Riker be denied this special right simply because he isn't a klingon? If Riker was denied that right then there would be no equal protection under the law.

If Riker had committed the act on a Klingon ship in neutral space then Klingon law applies. The difference is, Riker would not killed him. He would have been a Starfleet guy about it and demanded Duras' extradition which would have caused all sorts of problems.

Worf, a federation citizen, murdered Durass in cold blood, whether or not the Klingons see it that way doesn't matter; he isn't afforded special rights simple because he comes from that heritage. It would apply a seperate set of laws and the Federation Supreme court would deny that obsurd defense...

No..its just another example of Picard not having a backbone and really dolling out real discipline...

Worf is not being afforded any special rights. He did not commit the murder on Federation soil, he did it on Klingon soil. The Klingons had the right to charge him or not. They chose not to. If they had done it would have been their right to demand his extradition but no extradition was sought.

Oh..and in real life? Some muslim groups are already saying this guy should be sent to the middle east to face trial. Ummmmm...no. He did it here in our country and should face justice here...

I fail to see what Muslims have to do with anything. We're talking about a fictional television show from nearly two decades ago.

As Babaganoosh points out, Worf made a legal challenge which Duras' guards and even Duras (who had demonstrated no particularly strong belief in Klingon ethics to begin with) himself respected.

 

[-Brett-]

Oh..and in real life? Some muslim groups are already saying this guy should be sent to the middle east to face trial. Ummmmm...no. He did it here in our country and should face justice here...

So by that logic, Worf did the deed under Klingon jurisdiction, he should face Klingon justice.

Except for the Klingons, what he did was perfectly legal. So where does that leave this discussion?

 

[The Master of Tarquin Hill]

I am sure by now that we have all read the story about the new york woman being brutally killed by her husband; he cut her head off. She had filed for divorce and, if reports are correct, he did it because in their society, when a woman demands a divorce, it brings shame to the family....

As we all know, Worf claimed his killing of Durass was an act of honor. True, Durass did take Kaylar's life, but Worf, IMO, got away with murder. Another example of Picard's lack of discipline for his senior stall (Just calling as I see it)

Other scifi franchises have had so called 'honor' killing as part of the plot. And now we have this real life incident. Can you give examples of other so calld 'deaths due to honor' in the scifi/fantasy realms? And if so, what was your opinion of it then...and now??? There is no right or wrong answer. I just want to see how fans, like us, see this subject matter in scifi/fanatasy franchises

Rob

What a bunch of conflated bullshit.

 

[Lonemagpie]

I am sure by now that we have all read the story about the new york woman being brutally killed by her husband; he cut her head off. She had filed for divorce and, if reports are correct, he did it because in their society, when a woman demands a divorce, it brings shame to the family....

As we all know, Worf claimed his killing of Durass was an act of honor. True, Durass did take Kaylar's life, but Worf, IMO, got away with murder. Another example of Picard's lack of discipline for his senior stall (Just calling as I see it)

Other scifi franchises have had so called 'honor' killing as part of the plot. And now we have this real life incident. Can you give examples of other so calld 'deaths due to honor' in the scifi/fantasy realms? And if so, what was your opinion of it then...and now??? There is no right or wrong answer. I just want to see how fans, like us, see this subject matter in scifi/fanatasy franchises

Rob

It's a bit more common in the UK - it's been an issue here for several years - and is pretty common in several Islamic countries.

Even here in the UK we've had cases of fathers murdering their daughters for going out with someone from a different faith, for wearing jewellery or makeup, etc.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

What a bunch of conflated bullshit.

VOAnews

Officials say the founder of a U.S. television station aimed at countering stereotypes of Muslims has been arrested and charged with beheading his wife.



....

unfortunately this kind of barbarism is no joke

German-Afghan gets life for 'honour killing'

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090213-17415.html
German-Afghan man was sentenced to life in prison for the “honour killing” of his sister on Friday, creating mayhem in the court room as family members screamed, assaulted journalists and attempted suicide.
His verdict sparked dramatic scenes in the court room as Ahmad Sobair O.’s family and friends wailed and hit the security glass behind which he was sitting. The accused himself began screaming: “You son of a whore! What is this, honour? I know no honour!”
He also yelled that had the trial taken place in Kabul, Afghanistan, he would have already been released long ago.
The murderer's mother then tried to throw herself out of a courtroom window, but was restrained by family members. Relatives of the accused also assaulted and threatened a journalist in the room.

According a United Nations report, around 5,000 women fall victim to "honor killings" around the world each year.

 

[Neroon]

Although this is very interesting stuff, as is usually the case here, the discussion needs to be brought back around to the shows / films involved.

 

[RobertScorpio]

What a bunch of conflated bullshit.

VOAnews

Officials say the founder of a U.S. television station aimed at countering stereotypes of Muslims has been arrested and charged with beheading his wife.



....

unfortunately this kind of barbarism is no joke

German-Afghan gets life for 'honour killing'

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090213-17415.html
German-Afghan man was sentenced to life in prison for the “honour killing” of his sister on Friday, creating mayhem in the court room as family members screamed, assaulted journalists and attempted suicide.
His verdict sparked dramatic scenes in the court room as Ahmad Sobair O.’s family and friends wailed and hit the security glass behind which he was sitting. The accused himself began screaming: “You son of a whore! What is this, honour? I know no honour!”
He also yelled that had the trial taken place in Kabul, Afghanistan, he would have already been released long ago.
The murderer's mother then tried to throw herself out of a courtroom window, but was restrained by family members. Relatives of the accused also assaulted and threatened a journalist in the room.

According a United Nations report, around 5,000 women fall victim to "honor killings" around the world each year.

Great post...and what Worf did was, pure and simple, and honor killing. He should have been thumbed out of Starfleet on his butt...Picard, again, lost credibility with that entire episode....

Rob

 

[iguana_tonante]

I am sure by now that we have all read the story about the new york woman being brutally killed by her husband; he cut her head off. She had filed for divorce and, if reports are correct, he did it because in their society, when a woman demands a divorce, it brings shame to the family....

As we all know, Worf claimed his killing of Durass was an act of honor. True, Durass did take Kaylar's life, but Worf, IMO, got away with murder. Another example of Picard's lack of discipline for his senior stall (Just calling as I see it)

You are mixing two very different examples. The real murder was perpetrated to lift a perceived loss of honor caused by the action of a member of your own family. For crazy fucks like that guy, it's not different than spanking your child: it's not nice and you may not like it, but you are doing the right thing for their own good (saving the honor of the family). It's a cold blood murder, and unfortunately it happens all the time in some zones of the planets. It's not even a religion thing: honor killings like that happened not too rarely in hyper-catholic Sicily as soon as fifty years ago. It's a sick and a sad event (and, contrary to the name, there is absolutely no honor in that).

The Worf example is an act of revenge exacted to punish another murder (an eye-for-an-eye mentality). In klingon justice system, apparently it's a perfectly legal action to do, so no problem about that. And it definitively was not a cold blook murder: a challenge to the death was issued and accepted. The case if that was a crime under federal law it's debatable and depends on specific arrangements between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Picard may have not liked what Worf did, but if he didn't infringe any law (except for leaving the ship), I can't punish him for that just because he didn't like it. Punishment is issued according to the law, not to the captain's personal feelings.

 

[FPAlpha]

What you are disregarding is that Picard and in extension the Federation has to respect the traditions of a single culture.

Now where the line is drawn at what is acceptable even within the Federation was never really established but nonetheless what humans may consider unacceptable may be perfectly valid for an Andorian or Vulcan.

By this premise Picard judged Worfs actions.. Worf acted according to his culture and the Klingons respected that and honored it so this lessened Worfs punishment.

Picard did not like it but since Worf was in his (cultural) rights he respected it and punished him only for failing in his duties as a Starfleet officer (leaving ship without permission).

 

[RobertScorpio]

What you are disregarding is that Picard and in extension the Federation has to respect the traditions of a single culture.

Now where the line is drawn at what is acceptable even within the Federation was never really established but nonetheless what humans may consider unacceptable may be perfectly valid for an Andorian or Vulcan.

By this premise Picard judged Worfs actions.. Worf acted according to his culture and the Klingons respected that and honored it so this lessened Worfs punishment.

Picard did not like it but since Worf was in his (cultural) rights he respected it and punished him only for failing in his duties as a Starfleet officer (leaving ship without permission).

Sorry..that just doesn't add up. Worf is not nor has he ever been a Klingon citizen. In fact, if an American citizen were to go to, oh, Ireland and kill someone one because of some 'honor killing' premise, do you really think the Irish government would just let someone come into their country, violate their laws, and just go home as if nothing happened?

Or course not. It doesn't matter if Worf is a klingon, he is a Federation citizen first.

Lets try this another way, maybe you can see what I am saying. What if the Klingon culture allows wife beating, perhaps they do, I don't know. One day, Worf beats the crap out of Dax. Now, because she is his wife, living board DS9, she choses not to press charges after she reports to work with a black eye and blood nose. She tells Sisko that Worf beat her because she dropped her plate of food on the ground, or some dumb thing like that, and Worf, being her husband, and according to the Klingon way, can just beat the crap out of her....

Do you really think Sisko would go on and allow that? No....not because he is her friend, but because they are Federation citizens first, and then they are practice klingon customs.

If you believe that SISKO should let Worf beat the crap out of Dax simply because of custom, then your attitude is a further example of why women are the most opressed people on this planet. But in this country, USA, cutting off the head of your wife due to an act 'honor' should not be tolerated simply because they are muslim

Unfortunately Picard, and STAR TREK TNG, set a very poor standard. IMO.

Rob
scorpio

 

[Hermiod]

^"Wife beating" is a bad example. First of all, Klingon women are more than capable of fighting back. Second, when a Klingon strikes someone of the opposite sex they are often initiating a mating ritual, not actually being violent towards them.

Third, in Klingon society attacking a defenceless person who is weaker than you is dishonourable.

Fourth, Jadzia hit him back. She is perfectly capable of giving as good as she gets. You will notice that when he had sex with Ezri he didn't strike her. Why ? Because she's not Jadzia.

Finally, if an American citizen travels abroad and commits a crime it is up to the justice system of the country where he or she committed the crime to punish them. If their justice system does not consider the person's actions to be a crime or chooses not to punish them, it is not up to the United States to punish them upon their return. If that person returns to the United States before the other country's justice system can punish them, it is up to that country to request that they be extradited.

The Klingons did no such thing. They did not consider Worf's actions to be a crime, they did not charge him with any crime, they allowed him to return to the Enterprise without restriction and they did not file for an extradition afterwards.

 

[FPAlpha]

No.. he's not a Klingon citizen but he is a Klingon therefore he had his cultural background as a Klingon.

The Klingons respected his culture which was their own and he acted according that culture.. what was printed on his ID mattered little in that regard. He has the ridges on his forehead therefore he was expected to act like a Klingon. I guess for them blood heritage is far more important than what your ID says.

Now the Federation is a bit different. However do you honestly expect all their member worlds and the hundreds of cultures to abide by a single cultural background?

I don't think so.. those cultures were existing way before the Federation was formed and it was the Federation that had to adapt and not the cultures. I guess this was one of the most difficult things to establish while founding the Federation.. to which degree are cultural matters acceptable and compliant with the Federation moral and ethical code?

For example.. Muslims have this habit of slaughtering an animal, i.e. cutting its throat and letting it bleed out during some of their religious festivities. We, i.e. western cultures, regard that maybe as cruelty. However Germany has passed a law allowing that under special circumstances, i.e. only a certified butcher may do this procedure.. private persons are not allowed to do that so Germany has adapted somewhat.

I guess the Federation "rulebook" concerning cultures fills up much storage space to account for such special circumstances but still the tricky question is where to draw the line.

Klingon culture is based heavily on honor.. if you follow their tradition you can kill and be regarded as honorable. It runs contrary to Federation ethics but Worf was always a unique case being the only Klingon in the Federation so i guess the Federation had to widen their rulebook to include Klingons or Picard made a command decision and since he was Captain after that i guess Starfleet and by extension the Federation must have approved (or kept silent to not stir things up with the Klingons).

 

[ancient]

Sorry, but a guy killing his wife because she was leaving him, and Worf having a duel with the guy who killed his wife are pretty much exact opposites from eachother.

 

[-Brett-]

Sorry..that just doesn't add up. Worf is not nor has he ever been a Klingon citizen.

Since when? He was born in the Klingon Empire, wasn't he? Every interaction we've seen between Worf and his people suggests that he has all the rights and priviledges of a citizen of their empire. He was allowed to challenge Duras, and later Gowron, after all.

Considering the attitudes we've seen, I'd guess that being biologically Klingon is their sole criteria for citizenship.

In fact, if an American citizen were to go to, oh, Ireland and kill someone one because of some 'honor killing' premise, do you really think the Irish government would just let someone come into their country, violate their laws, and just go home as if nothing happened?

No, but if he did something in Ireland that's perfectly legal there, but illegal here, he wouldn't face charges on his return.

Lets try this another way, maybe you can see what I am saying. What if the Klingon culture allows wife beating, perhaps they do, I don't know. One day, Worf beats the crap out of Dax. Now, because she is his wife, living board DS9, she choses not to press charges after she reports to work with a black eye and blood nose. She tells Sisko that Worf beat her because she dropped her plate of food on the ground, or some dumb thing like that, and Worf, being her husband, and according to the Klingon way, can just beat the crap out of her....

If they're on DS9, they're under Bajoran laws. Or Federation. Or some combination. The show never really made that clear. In any case, Klingon laws don't apply there, as Kurn's little visit demonstrated.

 

[Johnny Rico]

I am sure by now that we have all read the story about the new york woman being brutally killed by her husband; he cut her head off. She had filed for divorce and, if reports are correct, he did it because in their society, when a woman demands a divorce, it brings shame to the family....

Oh, com'on...let's not be, in the words of our new Attorney General, Eric Holder, cowards here...let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

Their "society" is ISLAM.

And some people say that Christians are the evil ones...

 

[iguana_tonante]

Sorry..that just doesn't add up. Worf is not nor has he ever been a Klingon citizen. In fact, if an American citizen were to go to, oh, Ireland and kill someone one because of some 'honor killing' premise, do you really think the Irish government would just let someone come into their country, violate their laws, and just go home as if nothing happened?

Dude, you are seriously misrepresenting the facts. He is a klingon citizen, at least as the klingons are involved. he has standing in their society (because he may be stripped of it, with that discommendation ceremony when his late father was unjustly accused of treason). So he is a klingon, following klingon law on klingon soil, with all klingons present willingly involved. I really don't know where to start with the Ireland comparison. It doesn't make sense give the example involved.

I will give you a more appropriate example. An american citizen goes to Holland and buys and smokes a joint. It's illegal on the US, but legal in Holland. Do you think he will face prosecution when he comes back to the US?

If you believe that SISKO should let Worf beat the crap out of Dax simply because of custom, then your attitude is a further example of why women are the most opressed people on this planet. But in this country, USA, cutting off the head of your wife due to an act 'honor' should not be tolerated simply because they are muslim

It's completely different. I don't know if you don't understand or you don't want to understand. Of course it could not be tolerated. You are just mixing two different examples, because they have the word "honour" tossed in them. They are not even related. Do you understand it?

And the accusation of misogyny are really out of line. Step back, or take a walk.