Holodeck AI and its uses

[Twilight Phoenix]

The more I see the Holodecks in use, the more it appears to me as a giant AI generator !
Of course, it doesn't generate something as complex as Moriarty everyday, yet the programs at work are capable at analyzing, adaptating and interacting very smoothly with users
That makes me wonder how useful the Holodecks' AI could be for many situations. Imagine coding a specific program to emulate the personality and knowledge of basically any scientist, a bit like what Geordi did in an episode. That would be the most complete kind of scientific database !
Also, I am wondering if a Holodeck program could be used to "resurrect" Lal ? Maybe it happens later in the novels, though. I didn't read them yet.
BTW, would it be possible to transfer a human's conscience in a Holodeck program to give said human a certain form of immortality ?

 

[Timo]

I'm pretty sure most Star Trek gadgets are "AI ready": it's simpler and cheaper to churn out standard computing doodads (generally software aspects of the ship's mainframe) that have AI built in than to design dedicated stupid doodads for operating the doors or the lights or the holodecks.

Building expert databases by building entire personalities doesn't sound all that feasible, though: all the useful knowledge would be buried under the egos of the scientists who, back when they lived, were too stupid, arrogant or otherwise human to actually see what they knew.

Moving the personalities of people into computers was what Ira Graves tried to do. Supposedly, he didn't have it down pat when death came, though, which is why he instead hijacked Data's computing capabilities as his new home. When he was ousted from there, the next transfer didn't carry over his personality. So we never learned whether he could have done it right if going directly into the computer. And if Ira Graves couldn't do it, probably nobody could.

I mean, you can make your mind part of a holodeck simulation, as in "Our Man Bashir", and this ought to amount to the aforementioned immortality. But we're left with the vague notion that "Our Man Bashir" was an accident too poorly understood to be properly reproduced. And Ira Graves supposedly is mostly dead and can't (won't?) be of help.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

In Voyager's era, obsolete EMH holograms are repurposed, doing mining in the Federation.

In other words, they create a slave labour caste.

 

[Kor]

I found it rather odd for them to use EMHs in that way, especially as they apparently still had self-awareness. Pure automatons should have been used instead.

Kor

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Clearing holodecks have access to complex AI able to take several different custom parameters, also able to interpret commands and make intelligent judgments about setting those parameters. So it is an 'AI building AI'.

Even if you transfer a person's personality into a hologram and make it sentient, it isn't them, it's a different person who acts very similar to them.

I found it rather odd for them to use EMHs in that way, especially as they apparently still had self-awareness. Pure automatons should have been used instead.

Kor

Doc wasn't sentient in Caretaker, he became sentient at some hard to define point along the way. Unclear whether that happens to all mark ones left on long enough.

This discussion brings up an interesting idea for a theme to explore in an episode. A woman loses her son in a tragic accident. She then recreates him in the holodeck and becomes addicted to the simulation.

 

[Timo]

In Voyager's era, obsolete EMH holograms are repurposed, doing mining in the Federation. In other words, they create a slave labour caste.

It looks more like a hospital donating used jackets for use as mining coveralls to me.

Although it's probably not for real anyway - just an epilogue the EMH wrote into his book. I mean, the book was recalled, so logically nobody in that mine (if it exists) should be able to access it. Or should 24th century recall practices not be considered workable?

(As for slave labor, nothing wrong with it, apparently. After all, every 24th century hero supposedly is a slave, doing unpaid work all day long and being punished for not doing it properly.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It looks more like a hospital donating used jackets for use as mining coveralls to me.

Although it's probably not for real anyway - just an epilogue the EMH wrote into his book. I mean, the book was recalled, so logically nobody in that mine (if it exists) should be able to access it. Or should 24th century recall practices not be considered workable?

(As for slave labor, nothing wrong with it, apparently. After all, every 24th century hero supposedly is a slave, doing unpaid work all day long and being punished for not doing it properly.)

Timo Saloniemi

You can't erase something from existence in the 21st century, can't imagine how hard it is in the 24th.

It's extremely frivolous to compare the moneyless economy of the 24th century to slavery. People are free to go if they choose to, are not raped and abused, are still provided basic survival needs if they do not work, and remember this is an economy of prestige, influence and privileges which they are certainly rewarded for good work.

 

[Makarov]

The holodeck being able to recreate people with ~90% accuracy would change culture way more than the show gets into. You then have a society where nobody would grow up feeling alone (unless they have no access to holodecks) and you can interact with heroes / historical figures. I agree recreating lost loved ones would be a huge thing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

*insert Futurama/sex bot educational video*

 

[Timo]

You can't erase something from existence in the 21st century, can't imagine how hard it is in the 24th.

...Might be much easier, too.

It's extremely frivolous to compare the moneyless economy of the 24th century to slavery. People are free to go if they choose to, are not raped and abused, are still provided basic survival needs if they do not work, and remember this is an economy of prestige, influence and privileges which they are certainly rewarded for good work.

I'm curious - how often do you think the EMH-lookalikes in that mine get raped? What sort of whips are the bosses using, exactly - holographic ones? As for withholding survival needs, holograms have none AFAWK. Except perhaps for the need to work.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

...Might be much easier, too.



I'm curious - how often do you think the EMH-lookalikes in that mine get raped? What sort of whips are the bosses using, exactly - holographic ones? As for withholding survival needs, holograms have none AFAWK. Except perhaps for the need to work.

Timo Saloniemi

It's not a one to one mapping, and you know it.

It's not slavery if you have to sign up, and you are free to quit. By your logic, all volunteer jobs are slavery.

 

[Timo]

You're fighting a different battle here. I equate the EMH miners with the Starfleet heroes, both indeed being in the exact same sort of "slavery" (your word, not mine). Whatever this has to do with cotton fields is all in your mind, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

The EMH holograms have one survival need: the energy used to create and maintain their hard-light existence. If they refuse to work, then they are wiped from existence. Pretty harsh stuff, if we go by the episode's implication that they are sapient beings.

The Starfleet folks can and sometimes do quit their work. They are paid in privilege, at least, if not money/credits. There are some cases (Voyager), which border on slavery in the abstract, but the idea would appal the "slaves" and "slavers" alike, and they would quickly mediate any disputes that arise to prevent such comparisons.

The worst excesses of chattel slavery aren't really present in either scenario. EMH's probably aren't raped, because there are other holograms that can service those needs. They aren't whipped because any laziness or disobedience would be treated with erasure or more likely program alterations.

Why Zimmerman's face is used is beyond me, but they probably have their minds wiped on a regular basis and much of their medical database removed.

 

[Timo]

The EMH holograms have one survival need: the energy used to create and maintain their hard-light existence. If they refuse to work, then they are wiped from existence. Pretty harsh stuff, if we go by the episode's implication that they are sapient beings.

And on the other hand pretty lenient, considering that there's no permanence to an EMH-style hologram dying that way. Just turn the power back on and voila - an immortal superbeing is reborn!

Being immune to wiping from existence is good stuff. Most AIs would probably be capable of infinite existence, in the senses of infinitely long existence, infinitely complex existence, infinitely multiple existence, plus freely adjustable pace and extent of living. EMH-style holograms seem to be incapable of at least infinitely multiple existence (no copying or at least no backing up with copies), which is a handicap compared to humans who can be copied by transporter if need be... But in essence, holograms are vastly superior lifeforms. If the Federation strives for equality, it has to cut these people down to "our" level somehow.

The Starfleet folks can and sometimes do quit their work. They are paid in privilege, at least, if not money/credits.

Would the holograms in the mine be different? We don't see them long enough to establish the inability to quit, or the lack of the blackmail-with-privileges you describe for Starfleet.

(This and further arguments courtesy of the "Let's pretend this mine was for real, and not part of the Doctor's book" school of thought. I mean, pickaxes and carts?)

Why Zimmerman's face is used is beyond me, but they probably have their minds wiped on a regular basis and much of their medical database removed.

What medical database? There's no sign of one ever having been associated with these things.

The idea that the holograms would be EMHs somehow retired and put to a different use is a rather absurd one. Why retire an EMH when you can upgrade instead? And if you decide to dump, why recycle? We see many holoprograms involving characters capable of swinging a pickaxe (if only to hack down a fellow gangster), without medical expertise or even sapience involved. If recycling (or copy-pasting) were a thing, those would be the ones most suited, surely.

New faces and personalities are being churned out by the likes of Bashir's friend Felix; one can no doubt be sold without the other, so the mine could buy the Zimmerman face/voice but no personality whatsoever, or then the personality of some jovial miner right at home in a 1950s western featuring jovial miners. But the Zimmerman face might be a sales success in multiple markets for being cute, confidence-evoking and sufficiently low on the handsomeness scale not to spur jealousy or other hot sentiments.

Timo Saloniemi