History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

[Shik]

Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck who insists on adding the Luna-class or some STO class or the USS OMFGZ Phazorz Battlship to it? How is this different from, say, Masao's work (which denies all of ENT outright) or Timo's work (which shoehorns in as many old fandom classes as possible)?

I ask for real feedback & criticism to make it better, but that does not mean I want to change it to the whims of everyone else. My universe, my rules. Other people can (& have, & do) make their own to their liking to play in.

 

[T'Girl]

Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck ...

That would be the Dixonesque part.

How is this different from, say, Masao's work ...

From my observation, while Masao doesn't seem to allow many into his site, he has no problem with people monkeying with his ideas and designs. I've seen him compliment people here and at DeviantArt who have reinterpreted and modified his work.

Can't remember him employing the term "schmuck."

My universe, my rules.

Shik this is a discussion site, once you put your ideas and concepts out for examination, the direction of that discussion is out of your control.

But no, you don't have to accept any of the ideas generated here.

 

[Shik]

Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck ...

That would be the Dixonesque part.

How is this different from, say, Masao's work ...

From my observation, while Masao doesn't seem to allow many into his site, he has no problem with people monkeying with his ideas and designs. I've seen him compliment people here and at DeviantArt who have reinterpreted and modified his work.

Can't remember him employing the term "schmuck."

My universe, my rules.

Shik this is a discussion site, once you put your ideas and concepts out for examination, the direction of that discussion is out of your control.

But no, you don't have to accept any of the ideas generated here.

A) I didn't do this for anyone but me. It's a reflection of my take on the universe. I don't know Dixon's motivations nor do I care to.

B/C) This ties in with the above. I cannot stop anyone from taking what I've done & utilizing it for their own purposes, perhaps even modifying it for their own purposes. In fact, I would not mind that at all. But once that's done it ceases to be mine & becomes theirs. But mine is mine; there's only a single arbiter for what goes & that's me. Nothing I've written or drawn up is static except for me. Should someone else choose to use it & make changes, power to them. Cthulhu knows I've stolen from enough sources & changed things around to fit my purposes enough. Who am I to prevent anyone else from doing so?

Schmuck is a mild term. Now, if I'd shifted into Icelandic, Chinese, Russian, Hindi, or Rromanes....well.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

As for USS Stalingrad, well, obviously we would have USS Agincourt even though that's doubly wrong, too - USS Azincourt or USS Whatever Village or Geographical Feature Really Marked the Spot Equidistant from the Agincourt and Tramecourt Landmarks would not be fitting, as it's the battle we commemorate, not the location, and through a specific vantage point and narrative, too, not through any sort of an objective viewpoint.

Timo Saloniemi

Well sorry, I thought since the other Dieppe-class ships are named for cities, I would think that the name of the freaking city in the future would still be Volgograd. Why they would name a ship after a short-lived city in 20th century named after a brutal dictator, I'm not sure.

 

[Timo]

Okay, in terms of that argument, we should remember that St Petersburg has reverted back to Leningrad by the 2280s.

Both these names come from "brutal dictators", of course (or did anybody back in the days of the Great Northern War really buy into "St" referring to the biblical figure?). If we categorically shied away from those, we couldn't have USS Washington or USS Gandhi, either, because every ruler with such great numbers of deaths on their (supposed) conscience risks being considered brutal or dictatorial at some point.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Masao]

Good luck, Shik!

My first rule when taking on a project like this is to keep it under wraps until it's done. If you post a WIP in a public forum like this, you are inviting people to comment. Some comments will be constructive, and some will be ill-informed and mean-spirited. Some people will complain that your project is not the project they would have done or would like to see and is, therefore, a waste of time. But you shouldn't argue with people over your choices. Take the advice or ignore it, but by posting here, you're asking for it.

But my question is why do you need to show it now? If you're looking for an "attaboy" and praise and encouragement, you shouldn't need that to keep you going. If you're looking for real advice, then share it only with people whose advice you trust. Nowadays, I share my articles and designs before they're posted with only 2 other people (who I trust and have been working with for about 10 years).

T'Girl: For the right price, I am willing to call anyone you designate "a schmuck." Make me an offer.

 

[T'Girl]

^ I'll PM you a list.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

After reading through the tidbits, I noticed that there are a lot of ships with warship designations and other similar designations, but there are not a lot of auxiliaries.

If you look at the navies in the past and the present, the majority of the Navy are support ships and other auxiliaries.

Besides the fact, that your list doesn't show rises and lows in shipbuilding. You can tell exactly what kind of events are happening in a country by their armament increase and decrease.

Also, there isn't any ships that were planned or ordered, but then cancelled due ending of wars, arms races, failed prototypes, and failed technologies.

 

[Shik]

After reading through the tidbits, I noticed that there are a lot of ships with warship designations and other similar designations, but there are not a lot of auxiliaries.

If you look at the navies in the past and the present, the majority of the Navy are support ships and other auxiliaries.

The reason for so few purpose-built auxiliaries is due to the fact that line vessels are often downgraded & gutted for conversion to these purposes. Ref. Lantree & Bradford. But later generations do have more purpose-built members of those types.

Besides the fact, that your list doesn't show rises and lows in shipbuilding. You can tell exactly what kind of events are happening in a country by their armament increase and decrease.

Also, there isn't any ships that were planned or ordered, but then cancelled due ending of wars, arms races, failed prototypes, and failed technologies.

With a single exception, I have so far declined to mention those things in the generational overviews because they weren't relevant, were too tangential, & could be edited. A couple later articles may address it, & it will be mentioned more in the ship-specific ones.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

I understand it is much more interesting to talk about frontline ships like cruisers, destroyers, and such; but they are nothing without support.

There is a reason why auxiliaries and other support ships are often militarized versions of commercial ones; engines and other systems that work well on a vessel designed with a primary and secondary combat systems tend to break down much faster due to the stress being put on them. While we have one example of a what appears to be an older ship relegated to a support role, those ships will not last as long as a ship that was built for such role.

If the Lantree was converted due to some events in the early 24th Century, where Starfleet needed more support ships due to belligerent star nation or a cold war-like status, then yes it was a feasible thing to do at that time. In regarding the Bradford, who knows what internal layout that ship has, it could be completely different and downgraded due to its vastly different mission role than a Miranda.

My advice would be to expand the tensions and events that occurred in the Trek history and then start plugging in ship classes with ship numbers, names, and other pertinent data. I would read the naval history of the US, UK, Russia, and France of the 20th to get a feel for it otherwise you're going to spouting that the UFP had a 1,000 Wambundus built for no real reason except for fill in the registry numbers.

It is much more interesting to know that the Wambundus were designed and built in non-Starfleet shipyards using indigneous and local materials for local system defense and patrol and the Wambundus were more operated by local Starfleet's version of the National Guard. That eventually, the Wambundus were retired en masse twenty years later due to the introduction of the Sword-class light frigate, which was much more powerful, but smaller. All conjecture of course.

 

[Timo]

It should be considered, though, that Starfleet is constantly at war. If not with specific cultures, then against Mother Nature herself. Would there ever be an opportunity for a lull in shipbuilding?

Dixonesque (in the good sense) works can build on a roller-coaster pseudohistory easily enough: by taking into account all the source material out there, one ends up with such disparate bits that there are necessarily major changes in Starfleet makeup and major shifts in Federation politics and the fortunes of war and peace for basically every decade between now and the post-TNG years. It might be better to ignore such inconsistencies rather than revel in them, though, as writing your own pseudohistory can be at least as rewarding. And that in turn will easily fit inside the great lacunae of canonical Trek, no matter how topsy-turvy a story you create.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProwlAlpha]

It should be considered, though, that Starfleet is constantly at war. If not with specific cultures, then against Mother Nature herself. Would there ever be an opportunity for a lull in shipbuilding?

Dixonesque (in the good sense) works can build on a roller-coaster pseudohistory easily enough: by taking into account all the source material out there, one ends up with such disparate bits that there are necessarily major changes in Starfleet makeup and major shifts in Federation politics and the fortunes of war and peace for basically every decade between now and the post-TNG years. It might be better to ignore such inconsistencies rather than revel in them, though, as writing your own pseudohistory can be at least as rewarding. And that in turn will easily fit inside the great lacunae of canonical Trek, no matter how topsy-turvy a story you create.

Timo Saloniemi

Of course there would be a lull in shipbuilding at times, due to the rise and fall of demand during times of armament build up, the conversion of war-time to peace time and so on.

That's one of the major qualms I have against fandom, its all about creating the awesome ship, and yet ignoring the pseudohistory. And of course, the UFP despite being touted as an all-explorer force are in a lot of major wars in fandom.

Personally, I would write the history and the rest would fall into place. Someone else hit it on the nail when Dixonesque was in reference to the author's temperament rather than the work itself.

 

[Timo]

I just can't see how Starfleet could disarm after a war. If anything, the demand for ships is greater in peacetime: basically every episode of every series bar VOY is based on the lack of starships, forcing our heroes to act on barely sufficient or insufficient resources.

If anything, planners might breathe a sigh of relief when a war is declared, as that frees them from the contractual obligation to survey, explore, negotiate, settle and so forth, cutting down starship requirements by 70%.

Navies today do basically nothing but fight, which makes them diametrically opposite to Starfleet which is up to its neck in non-fighting duties, so much in fact that it barely finds time for wargames. Perhaps once in a century, it seems...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProwlAlpha]

A war time economy and a peace time economy are two very different models in terms of taxes, uses of materials, use of manpower, and how the nation is being directed.

A continous build up will only create shortages in unreplicateable materials such as warp cores and trained personnel.

Modern navies, while there first mission is the defense of their respective nations, carry out a lot of the same missions that we Starfleet do such as patrol, colonial re-supply, ocean exploration, and render humanitarian aid.

 

[Shik]

I cannot comment on this in greater depth without giving things away, but suffice it to say that Prowl has the diametrically opposite (&, I feel, incorrect) stance from that which will be shown