Hey, I never noticed that before....

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :guffaw:
     
  2. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    McCoy was concerned.
     
  3. Search4

    Search4 Captain Captain

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    it went the same place as Terrells phaser in Wrath of Khan. It disintegrated itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  4. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Hundreds of people disappear in any given country of a certain size (meaning not one of these micro countries like the Vatican) and are never found. Her disappearance especially in the mess that was America at that time would not cause a big stir, especially since she was still an unknown at that time, her fame came later (which is why we've never heard of her btw) and as for someone being accused of her death, it's extremely hard to make a case without a body so it couldn't result in the sentencing of an innocent. At most the cops would harass a few homeless people for a while and then drop the case. So the only thing that prevented her from escaping her time with Kirk is the GoF stupidity and nothing else. Plus she seemed very intelligent, I am sure she would have understood the situation if Kirk had explained it to her, all the more since she was dreaming of this world. It would have been a big thrill for her to become a part of it.
     
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  5. Push The Button

    Push The Button Commodore Commodore

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    McCoy didn’t know that, he was passed out on the ground.
     
  6. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, that always bugged me.
     
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  7. Search4

    Search4 Captain Captain

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    Who knows? Perhaps a young nerd saw the accident report and invented air bags. Or safety vests. Or the beep sound on reverse. Assume the butterfly effect wins here and it was needed her death was reported.
     
  8. Cancel Culture

    Cancel Culture Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She wasn't unknown. She ran her mission and soup kitchen, the 21st Street Mission. She was well known locally.

    For all we know, that could have also mattered.

    And the Guardian is something they can't change, so....

    Good ideas.

    ---

    Right, and something else. A record of how Edith was supposed to die was on Spock's tricorder. She died in a traffic accident. In order for the correct timeline to come into existence there had to be witnesses to that death. I left that point open in my previous post, but it's really not. Not only is evidence required of her death, it has to specifically be the death reported in the papers that Spock scanned on the tricorder. Otherwise, it would be a different timeline.

    So, in order to save Edith, they would have to convincingly fake her death in the same way that she died. They didn't even know the time and place exactly, because of the limitation in Spock's equipment built with 1930s resources, until it was about to happen. They simply did not have the resources needed to pull off a fake death. So, it's impossible to save her.

    As @Search4 says, you can't guarantee that the butterfly effect won't matter as well. Even if it's not one newspaper story, maybe it's something else that matters, that's connected to her death, but that they don't know about, because it cannot be retrieved from the tricorder, assuming it's even on there. The best they can do is let what's indicated to the best of their knowledge unfold, and as Kirk said, get the hell out of there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Thing is, though, the heroes can rule out butterfly effect. They have already messed up the timeline badly enough, altering the paths of dozens upon dozens of people, never mind talking with the one kingpin character and altering the way she thinks about the things she firmly and importantly believes in (even if only by reinforcing her convictions). If this doesn't matter, then killing a dozen or saving a hundred won't, either - why should it?

    What they can't rule out is that butterfly effect exists but they are predestined to create the effect. But in that case, there's no sense in stopping short of evacuating Keeler to another time alive, since there's no way of telling how far the predestination will reach.

    The safest bet would be to believe in only the coarse timelines mattering: just silence Keeler and all is fine and well. Kill, kidnap, discredit, everything is equally possible. Perhaps whisper a few untruths and have Eleanor R become jealous?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Locally, yeah. Everybody is known locally, I am known locally. There's nothing special about that.

    Nationally and internationally, which is what counts for the timeline, she was an unknown.

    She managed to screw up the war!!! That's a major accomplishment, in a grim sort of way. How many people In the world could have done that? no more than ten, probably less than five.
     
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  11. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Yeah, and perhaps the bum that self-disintegrated invented a new way to steal someone's wallet in a crowded place. Imagine how many wallets might have been saved by his death!!!:D
     
  12. Cancel Culture

    Cancel Culture Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, you've conflated two issues. You don't need to be internationally known in order to be missed if you suddenly disappear.

    Plus, being missed is not the only possible significance of the accident not happening, were she to disappear anyway. @Search4 pointed out that someone observing the accident itself could have been significant to the timeline.

    In any case, the conditions for entering the correct timeline were given in the tricorder recordings. Either she meets Roosevelt or she dies in a traffic accident. If she goes to the future, the traffic accident would have to have been faked, and that was infeasible.
     
  13. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    For all we know the conditions included Kirk having Chicken Marsalla for dinner and he didn't so...
     
  14. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    In Ellison's version Trooper's death is directly commented on at the end: it doesn't matter to the timeline but he mattered.

    In the episode the Guardian flat out tells them that if they are successful in restoring the timeline they will be returned as if nothing happened. The implication is if they don't, they're stuck. There's no option of bringing Edith back. So Kirk could save her but he and Spock are trapped in the past.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
  15. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    The problem I have is that Edith Keeler is quite smart, I am sure if they told her the whole story and why it is important that she didn't start her peace movement she could be persuaded not to start it. At least until Hitler is defeated. The problem is that they aren't offered the chance to do so, even though it would solve the problem.
     
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  16. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Thats not a "problem". That's not the story. McCoy interfered and destroyed human history going forward and that has to be fixed. Edith is a focal point on which one course of history turns. If she lives there's no guarantee the rest of history will proceed as it had before. Her disappearance could fuck things up, too, Butterfly effects and all that.
     
  17. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    The Butterfly effect doesn't happen selectively to one small event and not another... It happens SYSTEMATICALLY, each time the smallest disturbance is done at ANY moment in the past. You modify ONE atom and in about one nanosecond the atom that would have collided with it is modified, two nanoseconds and it's four atoms. Ten nanoseconds and it's two to the tenth power atoms that are modified, after a minuscule fraction of a second ALL the atoms in the vicinity of the disturbance have been modified, that disturbance then travels at the speed of light in every direction, after a short while all small objects that could be influenced by the Brownian motion are modified (that includes spermatozoa) and that means that approximately nine months later only one child in millions is identical to what he would have been in the other timeline!!

    That's the butterfly effect.
     
  18. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Commodore Premium Member

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    Exactly. This is a conversation-stopper for me. The script has flaws, but this wasn't one of them.
     
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  19. The Return of Zombie Cheerleader

    The Return of Zombie Cheerleader Moar Nu Trek Pleeze Premium Member

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    Also from the internet (wikipedia)
     
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  20. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Write a lot without saying much, don'cha? You're fixating about the specific meaning of a term and deliberately missing the point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021