"Heart of Stone": Odo's (super) strength?

[Ragitsu]

Good morning.

I am curious...roughly how strong is Odo? I remember an episode where he morphs out of an inanimate object form and casually whips Jem'Hadar into unconsciousness (beating them senseless, rather). Anyhow, this came to mind because I was watching the episode "Heart of Stone" and wondered why he didn't attempt to flow into the crystalline formation trapping "Kira's" foot; if he applied force from the inside the same way freezing water slowly probes a rock's cracks, that would have gone a ways towards weakening the crystal. Of course, this tactic would have been doomed to failure because of the big reveal, but I'm surprised he didn't try unconventional tactics in his desperation.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe he didn't think of it. Odo might have exceptional abilities, but his intelligence seems comparable to human levels.

Or maybe, given the nature of the crystal, there were no gaps to ooze into.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Crystal? Do you mean the Female Founder?

 

[Oddish]

Yes. Since she was both the crystal and Kira, there wouldn't exactly have been gaps between them, would there?

 

[at Quark's]

Yes. Since she was both the crystal and Kira, there wouldn't exactly have been gaps between them, would there?

That observation (that there were no cracks at all) in itself could have sent Odo thinking about what was really going on.

Then again, to me it defies belief in the first place that shapeshifters are totally undistinguishable from 'real' rocks or living tissue after they have shapeshifted into those forms for even the most advanced 24th century sensors, but of course it's great for storytelling.

 

[kkt]

Odo, especially relatively early in the series during Heart of Stone, was a very inexperienced shapeshifter. Throw out a tentacle, be a waiter's cart, fine. Think about what it would like to be a humanoid AND a crystal trapping her, maybe not. That's my attempt at an in-universe explanation.

 

[Michael]

Odo's exact abilities and properties were always a little inconsistently portrayed to begin with. While in this episode he's able to shield “Kira” from falling rocks with his body, in the first season episode “Vortex” he's actually knocked unconscious by falling rocks. I also seem to remember an episode where someone knocks him out with their bare fist. I think it was a case of different writers having different ideas of just how exactly shapeshifters were supposed to work.

 

[at Quark's]

Odo's exact abilities and properties were always a little inconsistently portrayed to begin with. While in this episode he's able to shield “Kira” from falling rocks with his body, in the first season episode “Vortex” he's actually knocked unconscious by falling rocks. I also seem to remember an episode where someone knocks him out with their bare fist. I think it was a case of different writers having different ideas of just how exactly shapeshifters were supposed to work.

Isn't that true for nearly all science-fictiony / fantasy concepts of Star Trek? We know what transporters generally do, but not what they can exactly do and what is just a fraction beyond their capability. We know what warp engines generally do but not exactly what their limits are. And so on, as long as it fits the story to be told that week

 

[Michael]

Isn't that true for nearly all science-fictiony / fantasy concepts of Star Trek? We know what transporters generally do, but not what they can exactly do and what is just a fraction beyond their capability. We know what warp engines generally do but not exactly what their limits are. And so on, as long as it fits the story to be told that week

True. The expectation shouldn‘t be that everything gets explained exactly. But generally the writers make it so that a new property that gets demonstrated doesn’t directly contradict an earlier one. I find it hard (but not impossible, mind you) to reconcile both instances of Odo getting hit by rock in virtually the same fashion as both being true for the same being. So what I really meant was that I don‘t need to know everything about any given sci-fi element in Trek, but the things we do get to know should give the illusion that the writers have figured it out at least.

 

[Unicron]

Then again, to me it defies belief in the first place that shapeshifters are totally undistinguishable from 'real' rocks or living tissue after they have shapeshifted into those forms for even the most advanced 24th century sensors, but of course it's great for storytelling.

It's definitely oddball, but not entirely uncharacteristic (to me) with how the Founders' unusual biology was generally portrayed. Since the liquid form seems to be their original state, and the female Founder inferred that the Link acts as a sort of collective, both physically and mentally, I could see where the Founders would be able to duplicate the atomic structure of many other materials or lifeforms, close enough that it's more than just visual camouflage.

One wonders what it was like when the Founders and the Link first evolved, as presumably there were other entities they learned to mimic before they began spacefaring. Odo commented in "The Search" that they apparently dislike assuming complex forms like humanoids, and Laas demonstrated the ability to become fairly exotic (to Odo, at least) non-humanoid forms like fire or an alien that could fly through space.

Odo's exact abilities and properties were always a little inconsistently portrayed to begin with. While in this episode he's able to shield “Kira” from falling rocks with his body, in the first season episode “Vortex” he's actually knocked unconscious by falling rocks. I also seem to remember an episode where someone knocks him out with their bare fist. I think it was a case of different writers having different ideas of just how exactly shapeshifters were supposed to work.

It could be that Odd had improved his abilities since then, as his first encounter with the Founders motivated him to explore entirely new aspects of his powers. It could also be that Odd was simply caught off guard in "Vortex."

 

[Watersluis]

I must say. I always find using canon material to determine facts as though canon be consistent to be a bit odd.
The boring and sad reality is that the powers of almost no super powered character in fiction are portrayed consistently.

Odo is as strong as the plot requires him to be.

 

[Ragitsu]

I must say. I always find using canon material to determine facts as though canon be consistent to be a bit odd.
The boring and sad reality is that the powers of almost no super powered character in fiction are portrayed consistently.

Odo is as strong as the plot requires him to be.

If there's one dedicated writer or at least multiple writers that work to maintain regularity, then it is possible. Unfortunately, Star Trek was frequently known for its inconsistency.

 

[Watersluis]

If there's one dedicated writer or at least multiple writers that work to maintain regularity, then it is possible. Unfortunately, Star Trek was frequently known for its inconsistency.

Do you know of any title that features super powers which are portrayed consistently therein? I can think of none.

For a moment, Elfen Lied came to mind, but I can remember some instances where Lucy's vectors clearly went beyond the range of the stated four metres, and the amount of force he can exert with them was not portrayed consistently.

 

[matthunter]

Also, applying enough pressure to break crystal when the nearest object to push against is humanoid skin and bone might have nasty consequences.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

applying enough pressure to break crystal

Again, what crystal? The encased Kira was always just the Female Founder, crystal and all. Odo trying to "break" the "crystal" is just Odo unknowingly trying to get physical and intellectual leverage against a chanelling who is clearly stronger, smarter and more experienced than he. Trying to analyze the situation in terms of his strength doesn't make sense.

 

[Watersluis]

Again, what crystal? The encased Kira was always just the Female Founder, crystal and all. Odo trying to "break" the "crystal" is just Odo unknowingly trying to get physical and intellectual leverage against a chanelling who is clearly stronger, smarter and more experienced than he. Trying to analyze the situation in terms of his strength doesn't make sense.

Odo did not know that at the start.
The quæstion is not why he did not succeed, but why he did not attempt.

The reality is that in much fiction, many a superpowered individual does not use any specific power he has to solve many an issue. — A particular gripe I have is how often superman neglects to not use his “super speed” to solve many issues he faces.

 

[matthunter]

Again, what crystal? The encased Kira was always just the Female Founder, crystal and all. Odo trying to "break" the "crystal" is just Odo unknowingly trying to get physical and intellectual leverage against a chanelling who is clearly stronger, smarter and more experienced than he. Trying to analyze the situation in terms of his strength doesn't make sense.

Trying to explain why he didn't attempt it DOES. As far as he knows, her leg is encased in crystal. Pushing against it with sufficient force to shatter it could just as easily shatter her leg - and whilst 24th Century tech can heal stuff like that, if a bone shatter severs a blood vessel, they are too far from medical help to stop her bleeding out and Odo has no medical training.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Wow. It obviously wasn't a typical crystal, but for some reason we expect him to brute force his way through the problem?

Odo being Florida Man wouldn't be smart, nor would it be good TV.

 

[Watersluis]

Trying to explain why he didn't attempt it DOES. As far as he knows, her leg is encased in crystal. Pushing against it with sufficient force to shatter it could just as easily shatter her leg - and whilst 24th Century tech can heal stuff like that, if a bone shatter severs a blood vessel, they are too far from medical help to stop her bleeding out and Odo has no medical training.

Not necessarily, Odo does not have to push back against Kira's flesh but can push back against the other side of the crystal, simply expanding without pushing onto the leg at all in theory.

But even if he could not, it's certainly something they should bring up and discuss, and perhaps gives this reason as to why it would not work.

But it would not be the first problem that Odo could solve with his super powers, that he did not.

Or of course the many issues that can be solved with the super power of transportation technology, yet no boarding party is ever beamed into the brig or in space, and given that transporters sometimes malfunction and have patterns disintegrate, can someone tell me why there needs to be an endpoint? The way I see it, they can clearly be used as a powerful weapon that can be used to destroy any matter, since apart from not working through shields, there is no known matter they cannot transport.

 

[Tuskin38]

Wow, shows how long it's been since I watched this episode, I completely forgot the female founder was part of it. I just thought he figured out some way to free her, and I just couldn't remember the details.

I think I'm going to rewatch it later.