Healing Vina

[Maurice]

Interesting. Source, please?

Every damned skeleton that had T-Rex's dragging their tails and standing bolt upright. Early reconstructions of stegosaurs and ceratopsians with their front legs splayed out like lizards instead of under their bodies, stegosaurs with two rows of plates instead of a single row of alternating ones, and Edward Cope mistaking elasmosaurus neck vertebrate for tail vertebrate and putting the skull on the wrong end, etc. etc. Brittanica on the subject (link).

In this case, that's apples and oranges. The Talosians can read minds. Providing that Vina had seen a couple of anatomy books, then those memories are buried in her head.

Most people do not have photographic memories. And looking at basic anatomy is not going to tell you how everything fits together internally. I had a Visible Man model and I couldn't tell you how to connect the kidneys to what where and which muscles and tendons are anchored to what bones. So the Talosians made some incorrect assumptions which lead to her being hunch backed. As she said "everything works" but it's just not put back together 100% accurately.

 

[Shawnster]

Let me get this straight: you think that because you have seen a couple of pictures, you could heal Vina? Or, better still, teach a stranger to heal Vina?

I think because I've seen a couple of pictures that I understand humans look pretty much symmetrical and not like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. So, to me, the line "they had no guide" falls flat.

Now, the comment about how the Talosians backed away from technology is helping rationalize her appearance. Not so much the Talosians lacked a guide, but they lacked the skill.

 

[Commishsleer]

I think because I've seen a couple of pictures that I understand humans look pretty much symmetrical and not like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. So, to me, the line "they had no guide" falls flat.

Now, the comment about how the Talosians backed away from technology is helping rationalize her appearance. Not so much the Talosians lacked a guide, but they lacked the skill.

Yes perhaps to save her life they had to do what they could at the time.
You know when someone has a terrible accident they often have tens of operations to fix bits and pieces gradually. The Talosians probably thought those operations were unnecessary even if they could perform them on a human because with illusions you could always be young and beautiful and under their control.
And this was the Talosians basic problem - using illusions when they should have been actually making babies, building houses, spaceships etc.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

I find it interesting that Pike didn't have a living will refusing medical care after his accident, given that DSC canonized that he knew in advance about the injuries and the chair. I don't believe he was informed about Spock's mission to Talos, so as far as he knew, he would be injured and trapped in the chair, and that was it. I'd rather refuse treatment in that event.

 

[Timo]

I think the whole point of the Time Crystal is that it locks the individual on a path: after seeing his future, he will do his damnedest to make it happen...

I think because I've seen a couple of pictures that I understand humans look pretty much symmetrical and not like the Hunchback of Notre Dame. So, to me, the line "they had no guide" falls flat.

That's an awfully literal interpretation of the "seeing" bit. I trust you have seen a picture of a Tesla, too. Or even one rolling by on the street. Now build me one. With actual blueprints plus training, you might. You don't have either, regardless of the "seeing". But a bit more, and more in-depth, "seeing", and you are one step closer.

So, for your next trick, build me Tesla. Nicola, that is. If Vina's spine is bent, then knowing that it ought not to be is not really a step towards straightening it. It's merely a step towards realizing one faces utter defeat, at least until a healthy individual who can serve as a blueprint strolls by.

On the other hand, I'm sure the Talosians could have built a perfectly good doll that looked like a healthy Vina. (Indeed, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they did!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FederationHistorian]

Can we mention how problematic it is that "The Cage" and "The Menagerie" basically imply that Vina's injuries render her too deformed and ugly to live in human society anymore?

It was mutually agreed by both Pike & Vina that she stays on Talos. But considering his radical views on certain topics in that episode, he may have been having a bad day when he rationalized that decision and not seriously though it through. For all we know, if Number One or Spock was the captain, they would have been fine with Vina returning to Earth to be reintegrated into human society.

 

[Henoch]

PIKE: So the Talosians who came underground found life limited here and they concentrated on developing their mental power.
VINA: But they found it's a trap. Like a narcotic. Because when dreams become more important than reality, you give up travel, building, creating. You even forget how to repair the machines left behind by your ancestors. You just sit, living and reliving other lives left behind in the thought record.

Even the Talosians succumbed to the addiction to their illusionary power and so did Vina. Vina didn't want to go not only because of her misshapen body, but because of her addiction to the illusionary world she can live in on Talos, complete with youth, beauty, love and her own Pike. Look how happy she was in the ending scene once her illusionary body and her illusionary Pike were restored to her.

 

[Neopeius]

Of course, it's also possible there never was any Columbia. The existence of the ship was revealed in a "radio message" that no doubt was utterly fake - that is, it was an illusion of a radio message, because soon thereafter there is another, in direct response to the failure of our heroes to act on the first one, even though no such response could have been sent at lightspeed to address this issue.

So the Talosians are projecting illusions at the heroes from the get-go, and "a survey ship Columbia existing in the records" could be one of those.

Timo Saloniemi

That would require the Talosians to have a range of 18 light years. Could be. Seems like a lot.

 

[Falconer]

In The Menagerie they can cast illusions all the way out to Starbase 11 (the illusion of Commodore Mendez boarding the shuttlecraft).

 

[Timo]

And, possibly, beyond, if Talosian influence is to be blamed for Spock's traitorous activities to begin with. Those started when he heard subspace gossip "months" before the events of the episode, and we can rather safely assume the Enterprise was far away at the time. It really is quite exceptional that Spock even could keep Kirk in the dark for those months, never mind that he would; perhaps the Talosians were messing with the whole ship for those months?

The DSC episode "If Memory Serves" gives us new data in that SB 11 is actually much closer to Talos than 18 ly. Not necessarily a contradiction of the idea that "we" would not have "ships or Earth colonies that far out" at the time of "The Cage"; SB 11 might have been established after those events, and indeed as the consequence of those events. But founding it only two lightyears from Talos would appear ill-advised if Starfleet thinks it through and realizes there was Talosian influence at 18 ly already during the original events. Then again, perhaps the base was established at the recommendation of the Talosians, who'd use compromised heroes as their mouthpieces?

Why Spock would consider the distance he speaks of to amount to "six days at maximum warp" when it doesn't take that long to go to Talos either in "The Menagerie" itself or in "If Memory Serves" is unknown, and not really the fault of anybody else but the writer of that line. Perhaps Spock was considering some other distance, or some other means of travel besides starships. But the latter at least would be at odds with his claim that he has it all "well planned" when we see the plan then involves hijacking a starship specifically. Perhaps Spock was lying to Pike, in order to conceal that what he was planning was not just a crime but actually high treason punishable by death?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

The DSC episode "If Memory Serves" gives us new data in that SB 11 is actually much closer to Talos than 18 ly. Not necessarily a contradiction of the idea that "we" would not have "ships or Earth colonies that far out" at the time of "The Cage"; SB 11 might have been established after those events, and indeed as the consequence of those events. But founding it only two lightyears from Talos would appear ill-advised if Starfleet thinks it through and realizes there was Talosian influence at 18 ly already during the original events. Then again, perhaps the base was established at the recommendation of the Talosians, who'd use compromised heroes as their mouthpieces?

Having SB11 a mere 2 LYs from Talos when both are meant to be in distinct solar systems is just another example of DSC being horrible with interstellar distances IMO and shouldn't be taken too literally

Why Spock would consider the distance he speaks of to amount to "six days at maximum warp" when it doesn't take that long to go to Talos either in "The Menagerie" itself or in "If Memory Serves" is unknown, and not really the fault of anybody else but the writer of that line. Perhaps Spock was considering some other distance, or some other means of travel besides starships. But the latter at least would be at odds with his claim that he has it all "well planned" when we see the plan then involves hijacking a starship specifically. Perhaps Spock was lying to Pike, in order to conceal that what he was planning was not just a crime but actually high treason punishable by death?

Fortunately the "six days" is easy to explain since the first log entry of The Menagerie Part 1 does not appear until just before the trial begins, which we know lasts around a 24 hours (from The Menagerie Part 2). Precisely what Kirk and crew and do were doing for the other 5 days is unknown, but attempting to wrestle control back from the ship's navi-computer is a fairly safe bet!

In The Menagerie they can cast illusions all the way out to Starbase 11 (the illusion of Commodore Mendez boarding the shuttlecraft).

This has always been the biggest hand-wave of the story with an explanation never even attempted
Could Spock have built some sort of telepathic relay into Kirk's communicator? Something similar on board the Enterprise too?
The good thing about such a device is that once activated, it could conceal itself from the subject's mind and thus never get detected so long as it continued to receive Talosian signals!

 

[Timo]

Having SB11 a mere 2 LYs from Talos when both are meant to be in distinct solar systems is just another example of DSC being horrible with interstellar distances IMO and shouldn't be taken too literally

Well, the Milky Way is stranger than we thought just a couple of decades ago, and might even approach Star Trek level weird. If Talos does happen to have a neighboring system that close by, SB11 might be ideally located there in the scenario where its founding is related to "The Cage".

Fortunately the "six days" is easy to explain since the first log entry of The Menagerie Part 1 does not appear until just before the trial begins, which we know lasts around a 24 hours (from The Menagerie Part 2). Precisely what Kirk and crew and do were doing for the other 5 days is unknown, but attempting to wrestle control back from the ship's navi-computer is a fairly safe bet!

We can always fall back on that, yes. "Twiddling one's thumbs" is also valid when we accept that the Talosians are in charge. Although "Saving hairy sword-wielding barbarians from fierce green women on horseback inside a fancy harem cave on fire" might be a preferable option to keep Kirk occupied.

This has always been the biggest hand-wave of the story with an explanation never even attempted
Could Spock have built some sort of telepathic relay into Kirk's communicator? Something similar on board the Enterprise too?
The good thing about such a device is that once activated, it could conceal itself from the subject's mind and thus never get detected so long as it continued to receive Talosian signals!

While the DSC adventure is self-consistent, it also nicely expands to blanket and smooth out all the other Talosian adventures: we learn there that there is no relevant range limit to the Talosian powers. At least not if those are wielded via communications channels!

We also have the precedent of Vulcan telepathy having interstellar range, merely reinforced in DSC. All telepathy might be like that - but it suffices for our needs for Spock's sort to be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

IMO, the Talosians would not go seeking out others thoughts at a great range,after the Cage.
It might be the case that once the Talosians establish a connection with a mind, they can influence it at a great range. Spock's telepathy might make him able to be contacted at a larger tanfe

 

[Timo]

When Vina contacts Pike across an unknown but no doubt considerable range, she does speak about the difficulty of maintaining contact across great distances. Then again, most of what she said, did or was was a filthy lie in the original episode...

In the DSC episode, she's the spokesperson for the Talosians again, but now tells solid truths as far as we can tell. The range issue may be true, too, even though she/the Talosians would have a motivation to force Pike's hand and make him hurry and not think - this time around, they want to blackmail memories out of Burnham, and may have other manipulative goals as well.

As for what the range was, the DSC heroes started from that range, and feinted towards SB11, then turned to Talos. We really don't know how long their trip took: might have been shorter than Kirk's, might have been considerably longer. The general implication is that they were farther out than SB11, though, or else their feint wouldn't really work.

The general implication in the episode also is that nobody escapes from Talos. We can't tell whether Vina would wish to, because we're given no reason to think she would have a choice on the matter. But the Talosians don't lift a finger or a vein to promote their slave race agenda there, so quite possibly it was a sham all along...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

I've never trusted FTL telepathy, and I never will.

 

[Timo]

They are dialing...
Let them dial!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Falconer]

Talos is “only six days away at maximum warp,” Spock tells Pike at Starbase 11.

If following the warp scale from the TOS Writer’s Guide, presuming maximum warp = Warp Factor 8 = 1.4 light years/day, the distance is approximately 8 LY.

Now to muddy the waters with a super-geeky diversion.

Star Trek Maps (1980) places them about 189 LY (58 parsecs) apart:

That’s much further than 8 LY. It would take 135 days to traverse according to the official WF scale. But according to STM’s own travel speeds (in the accompanying booklet), WF8 is more like 1,800 LY/day, which really is so insanely fast that it’s effectively a time warp—for all intents and purposes, you can be anywhere at any time. (My own PERSONAL warp factor scale works perfectly here, but I’m sure nobody cares about that.)

Now, what about FASA?

FASA kept STM’s overall shape but shrunk distances by a factor of 3:8 and ignored the third dimension. They also moved things around. For some reason, they relocated Starbase 11 from the frontier to the core, while correctly leaving Talos in the general vicinity of Rigel. Now the distance is 262 LY (80 parsecs), a distance which takes 188 days to traverse according to the TOS WF scale (which FASA uses).

But since SB11 is an artificial designation, it’s possible this was an in-universe change. So what happens if we put SB11 back in its STM equivalent position?

This is still a 114 LY (35 parsecs) distance, an 82 days’ journey. Still no good. The only planets that FASA (in its The Orions supplement) has placed near Talos are Ing (7 LY away) and B’Morgia (11 LY away), but no-one as far as I know has heretofore proposed that either one was ever the site of a Starbase.

 

[MAGolding]

Having SB11 a mere 2 LYs from Talos when both are meant to be in distinct solar systems is just another example of DSC being horrible with interstellar distances IMO and shouldn't be taken too literally

If interstellar distances have a random distribution, most stars will have an average and typical distance to their nearest neighbors, while some will be much farther or closer than the average.

Think of all the millions of asteroids, counting pebble and dust size ones, in our solar system, all orbiting around the center of mass in the Sun. There are billions and billions of stars in our galaxy, all orbiting round the center of mass of the galaxy. And just as asteroids orbit the Sun and get nearer to and farther from each other, so to the billions of stars orbiting the center of the galaxy pass nearer to and farther from neaby strs on their own orbits. Every meterorite which lands on Earth is a tiny asteroid which got close enough to Earth to collide with it.

So at any one moment in time, some stars will be closer to their closest neighbors than other stars will be, and over thousands and millions of years every star will pass close to and then move away from a number of other stars.

This table - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars_and_brown_dwarfs#Distant_future_and_past_encounters - lists stars calcaulated to pass within 8 light years of The Sun in the last five million years and in the next five million years, a mere ten million years in the four and a half billion years of tte Sun's past history. Note that six of them pass within two light years of the Sun. I guess that probably most stars in the galactic region of the Sun spend perhaps one percent of their time within two light years of another star.

So there is nothing weird about there being a few examples of stars only two light years apart in a large sample.of stars.

Fortunately the "six days" is easy to explain since the first log entry of The Menagerie Part 1 does not appear until just before the trial begins, which we know lasts around a 24 hours (from The Menagerie Part 2). Precisely what Kirk and crew and do were doing for the other 5 days is unknown, but attempting to wrestle control back from the ship's navi-computer is a fairly safe bet!

Spock says the voyage he mentioned to Pike offscreen will take six days at maximum warp. Spock stells the Eterprsie andd Kirk catches up and Spock is arrested. Later:

Captain's log, stardate 3012.4. Despite our best efforts to disengage computers, the Enterprise is still locked on a heading for the mysterious planet Talos Four. Meanwhile, as required by Starfleet General Orders, a preliminary hearing on Lieutenant Commander Spock is being convened. And in all the years of my service, this is the most painful moment I've ever faced.

And later:

Captain's log, stardate 3012.6. General Court-Martial convened. Mister Spock has again waived counsel and has entered a plea of guilty.

"The Menagerie Part 2" Begins with another log:

Personal log, stardate 3013.1. I find it hard to believe the events of the past twenty four hours or the plea of Mister Spock standing general court-martial.

I findit hard to believe that the events which Kirk found hard to believe began with the hearing for Spock. I think that the events which Kirk found hard the believe began with the revelation that no message was sent from Starbase 11, and the stealing of the Enterprise.

So I think this indicates that stardate 3013.1 was 24 hours after they reached Starbase 11, and the morning of the second day of the 6 day voyage to Talos IV.

Later:

Personal log, stardate 3013.2. Reconvening court-martial of Mister Spock and the strangest trial evidence ever heard aboard a starship. From the mysterious planet now only one hour ahead of us, the story of Captain Pike's imprisonment there.

So the six day voyage to Talo IV apparently has been completed in less than two days. Later the Keepr tells Kirk that:

KEEPER [on screen]: What you now seem to hear, Captain Kirk, are my thought transmissions. The Commodore was never aboard your vessel. His presence there and in the shuttlecraft was an illusion. Mister Spock had related to us your strength of will. It was thought the fiction of a court-martial would divert you from too soon regaining control of your vessel. Captain Pike is welcome to spend the rest of his life with us, unfettered by his physical body. The decision is yours and his.

It is my theory that the Talosians made Kirk forget about the court martial each night and repeat the court martial illusion each day, making Kirk think it was still the first or second day of the voyge, until the last day and hour of the voyage, when Kirk no longer had time to stop them.

Or maybe the episdode is so messed up with illusions and possible illusions that we have no way of knowing what really happened.

And, possibly, beyond, if Talosian influence is to be blamed for Spock's traitorous activities to begin with. Those started when he heard subspace gossip "months" before the events of the episode, and we can rather safely assume the Enterprise was far away at the time. It really is quite exceptional that Spock even could keep Kirk in the dark for those months, never mind that he would; perhaps the Talosians were messing with the whole ship for those months?

The DSC episode "If Memory Serves" gives us new data in that SB 11 is actually much closer to Talos than 18 ly. Not necessarily a contradiction of the idea that "we" would not have "ships or Earth colonies that far out" at the time of "The Cage"; SB 11 might have been established after those events, and indeed as the consequence of those events. But founding it only two lightyears from Talos would appear ill-advised if Starfleet thinks it through and realizes there was Talosian influence at 18 ly already during the original events. Then again, perhaps the base was established at the recommendation of the Talosians, who'd use compromised heroes as their mouthpieces?

Why Spock would consider the distance he speaks of to amount to "six days at maximum warp" when it doesn't take that long to go to Talos either in "The Menagerie" itself or in "If Memory Serves" is unknown, and not really the fault of anybody else but the writer of that line. Perhaps Spock was considering some other distance, or some other means of travel besides starships. But the latter at least would be at odds with his claim that he has it all "well planned" when we see the plan then involves hijacking a starship specifically. Perhaps Spock was lying to Pike, in order to conceal that what he was planning was not just a crime but actually high treason punishable by death?

Timo Saloniemi

This has always been the biggest hand-wave of the story with an explanation never even attempted
Could Spock have built some sort of telepathic relay into Kirk's communicator? Something similar on board the Enterprise too?
The good thing about such a device is that once activated, it could conceal itself from the subject's mind and thus never get detected so long as it continued to receive Talosian signals!

And it is my opinion that the Talosians can reach from Talos IV to Starbase 11, whatever the distance may be, with theiir telepathic powers, perhaps aided by hypothetical telpathy enhancing machines. Or else there are already Talosians at Starbase 11, unkown to those in Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

Our assorted outs there include the fact that Spock never said "Talos" to the camera when telling Pike what he was planning on doing. Perhaps he was referring to the six days in which the Enterprise responded to the summons Spock faked, and thus was alleviating Pike's understandable concerns that this very personal mission would endanger the Federation by keeping the Enterprise away from her important duties? The same rationale would apply if Spock were saying it's only six days to the next assignment so the little side trip to SB11 and then Talos won't kill anybody there.

Where is Talos? Pike's team went to Rigel and was on its way to the Vega Colony - was that a tither-and-yon mission, or part of a traveling spaceman serpentine path? Possibly Talos is farther out than either Rigel (whichever Rigel that is) or the Vega Colony (whether it's at or near Vega or merely a Vegan colony somewhere else altogether, like Earth Colonies tend to be), justifying Number One's comments on there being nothing human that far out. Spock did say the ship was "on a routine patrol" at the time, rather than rushing towards Vega in order to save the lives of the gravely wounded or whatever. And the ship was at impulse, it seems.

Timo Saloniemi