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I don't think they were, though, except in a very technical sense.
Carol Marcus's line about Starfleet "keeping the peace for a hundred years" in TWoK would suggest there was none between the foundation of the Federation and TOS (unless it happened in the first couple decades, but I don't think that young a Federation could've honestly survived a war with the Klingon Empire). She could've been speaking purely idiomatically though and just referring to Starfleet existing as a peacekeeping organization for a century-ish.
During TOS, the Federation and the Klingon Empire were officially at war for, like, a day in Errand of Mercy before the Organians stepped in, so from a legal perspective that would count.
Post-TOS, we know there was none before Khitomer. And there was no opportunity for one after Khitomer; even after Gowron suspended the Accords, he never went so far as to declare war on the Federation I don't think?
So overall it's "maybe pre-TOS, and definitely not post-TOS".
Edit: Wait, do we know there wasn't one between TOS and TUC? There were a few broad gaps in there where a protracted one technically could have taken place, thinking about it; is there anything that'd outright contradict a brief war during the movie era?
Edit: Wait, do we know there wasn't one between TOS and TUC? There were a few broad gaps in there where a protracted one technically could have taken place, thinking about it; is there anything that'd outright contradict a brief war during the movie era?
Sure, there was the Four Years War. You can see it in action in Axanar, which I'm totes sure will be out Any Day Now™!
In case you're not familiar with the background, IIRC the Four Years War was actually created by the FASA RPG. It was supposed to be a full-fledged war between the Federation and the Klingons, and I believe it started when the Klingons tried to annex Axanar, which was a technologically primitive world, unlike how it was ultimately depicted in ENT. The tie to Axanar was because of the "Axanar Peace Mission" referenced in "Courtmartial" and "Whom Gods Destroy". It is probably incompatible with modern canon, but if you wanted to do enough mental gymnastics, you could probably make it fit in your personal continuity, if you were so inclined.
ie - mentioning other "full scale" wars the Federation was involved in. But on that note... current thought is that the Romulan war pre-dates the founding of the Federation, so that one doesn't count. They were in a protracted war with the Cardassians, but I'm not sure how "full scale" that was, since it apparently lasted for decades, as was going on during the first couple seasons of TNG, and no one even mentioned it.
During TOS, the Federation and the Klingon Empire were officially at war for, like, a day in Errand of Mercy before the Organians stepped in, so from a legal perspective that would count.
Since we're in the Lit forum... didn't Diane Duane have this last for about a week before the Organians stepped in? I seem to recall that being mentioned in My Enemy, My Ally, when giving some background on Captain Suvuk.
Edit: Wait, do we know there wasn't one between TOS and TUC? There were a few broad gaps in there where a protracted one technically could have taken place, thinking about it; is there anything that'd outright contradict a brief war during the movie era?
I've read speculation on-line that a Federation/Klingon war between TFF and TUC was the reason Kirk was so anti-Klingon in TUC, when he was able to be friendly with them at the end of TFF. Not sure how well that fits overall, though.
Also, just checked MB, and apparently DC Comics had a Klingon/Federation war set in 2285, but it looks like
it was instigated by the Excalbians, as another test of good vs. evil. So "The Savage Curtain" writ large.
In case you're not familiar with the background, IIRC the Four Years War was actually created by the FASA RPG. It was supposed to be a full-fledged war between the Federation and the Klingons, and I believe it started when the Klingons tried to annex Axanar, which was a technologically primitive world, unlike how it was ultimately depicted in ENT. The tie to Axanar was because of the "Axanar Peace Mission" referenced in "Courtmartial" and "Whom Gods Destroy". It is probably incompatible with modern canon, but if you wanted to do enough mental gymnastics, you could probably make it fit in your personal continuity, if you were so inclined.
Forget modern canon -- as Idran just pointed out, Carol Marcus said in TWOK that Starfleet had kept the peace for a hundred years. Hard to reconcile that with a massive interstellar war just a few decades earlier.
This is why I've never cared for Star Trek role-playing games and video games. Most of them are so blasted combat-oriented, which I feel is twisting Star Trek into something very much out of character.
Since we're in the Lit forum... didn't Diane Duane have this last for about a week before the Organians stepped in? I seem to recall that being mentioned in My Enemy, My Ally, when giving some background on Captain Suvuk.
I guess it depends on how long you believe it took for the Enterprise to get to Organia after receiving its orders and being attacked. The episode doesn't specify the travel time between the teaser and the first act. The thing is, modern Trek has conditioned us to expect interstellar journeys to be a matter of days or hours -- if not minutes in some instances -- but TOS's bible stressed that the storytelling model was the naval vessels of the 19th century, operating far from home ports and taking a considerable time to get from place to place.
The events on Organia in "Errand of Mercy" seemed to take a couple of days, so when Federation: The First 150 Years called it "The Two-Day War," evidently Goodman was assuming the travel time was a matter of hours. But I find it problematical to assume that the Enterprise wouldn't receive its orders to set course for Organia until it was already within a few hours of Organia (which would mean it was probably already closer to Organia than to any other star system). It does seem reasonable, then, to assume that the total duration of the war was closer to a week, if not longer. Although I checked, and My Enemy, My Ally doesn't seem to specify the duration. All it says is that he achieved his feats "in rapid succession."
I've read speculation on-line that a Federation/Klingon war between TFF and TUC was the reason Kirk was so anti-Klingon in TUC, when he was able to be friendly with them at the end of TFF. Not sure how well that fits overall, though.
Yeah, it was the second half of the 4-part story that debuted DC's Trek comic, so it was shortly after TWOK and before TSFS. Which was undated at the time, but 2285 according to the assumptions made later by the Okudachron.
I've read speculation on-line that a Federation/Klingon war between TFF and TUC was the reason Kirk was so anti-Klingon in TUC, when he was able to be friendly with them at the end of TFF. Not sure how well that fits overall, though.
Dayton's novel In the Name of Honor (set about a month after TFF) was written in part to explain/bridge those two attitudes that we saw in the last two TOS films (leading to Kirk's anti-Klingon sentiments in TUC), but it involved liberating a Klingon prison-colony, rather than an all-out, full-scale war.
Forget modern canon -- as Idran just pointed out, Carol Marcus said in TWOK that Starfleet had kept the peace for a hundred years. Hard to reconcile that with a massive interstellar war just a few decades earlier.
I tend to agree with you, but as Idran also mentioned, she could be speaking fairly symbolically about Starfleet being a peacekeeping force in general. (Although honestly, I'm not sure what either interpretation means in context, since she's responding to "Scientists have always been pawns of the military!". Someone once speculated on this board that she was referring to peace between Starfleet and the scientists, which seems weird, but at least the sentence would make sense in context! )
Hello everyone,
I think there is a war. It's possible that the Battle of Caleb IV mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" was just a minor skirmish, but the whole point of the Klingon ship T'Ong in the TNG episode "The Emissary" is that it set out over 75 years before, during a Federation/Klingon war. As far as I know, that's all anyone ever says about it, but it is there.
Hello everyone,
I think there is a war. It's possible that the Battle of Caleb IV mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" was just a minor skirmish, but the whole point of the Klingon ship T'Ong in the TNG episode "The Emissary" is that it set out over 75 years before, during a Federation/Klingon war. As far as I know, that's all anyone ever says about it, but it is there.
Technically, what the episode says is that it was launched "when the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war." There's a difference between being in a state of war -- i.e. having formally declared hostilities between two nations -- and actually waging war -- i.e. sending armed forces into combat with each other. North and South Korea have been officially at war with each other since 1950, but the actual fighting ended in 1953, aside from a few skirmishes since. And of course there's the decades-long Cold War between the US and the USSR, which was waged only indirectly through espionage, brinksmanship, and proxy warfare. This was the specific model for the Federation-Klingon conflict in TOS and the movies.
So the lines in "The Emissary" aren't really referring to an open shooting war between the UFP and the Klingons, just the cold war and political enmity that existed between them at the time the T'Ong was launched in the 2280s.
Speaking of the T'Ong, it's a damn shame that an actor as badass as Lance LeGault got wasted on such a minor role. He got more screentime in Battlestar Galactica!
Carol Marcus's line about Starfleet "keeping the peace for a hundred years" in TWoK would suggest there was none between the foundation of the Federation and TOS
Yeah. That line fits really well with the presumed end of the Earth/Romulan War falling in 2260. Timeline serendipity!
I used to theorize that Starfleet had some sort of war or military action between TMP and TWOK, explaining the new uniforms and more militaristic attitude we saw in TWOK, but I suppose Carol's line throws out that possibility. Oh well, maybe they went right up to the brink of war, and pulled out of it just in time? That's a little more Star Trek, anyway.
As Spock said, "The results were inconclusive," so I'd say it was likely more of skirmish than anything else. I'd wager that it was an isolated incident.
The events on Organia in "Errand of Mercy" seemed to take a couple of days, so when Federation: The First 150 Years called it "The Two-Day War," evidently Goodman was assuming the travel time was a matter of hours.
Because apparently you need extra motivation to hate the people who killed your son, are responsible for the loss of your ship, and have been battling with you for 25-30 years.
Because apparently you need extra motivation to hate the people who killed your son, are responsible for the loss of your ship, and have been battling with you for 25-30 years.
Yeah, but that was pretty much also the necessity of dealing with the TUC screenplay, and having to suddenly write an angry and semi-bigoted Kirk when, in her previous novelization, he was perfectly willing to party down with his former Klingon enemies aboard his own ship with his homies. I can sorta see where Dillard was coming from on that one, given the characterizational-whiplash.
It doesn't really match up with the continuity presented in Enterprise, but in the TNG episode First Contact, Picard explains the federations first contact policy, saying that disastrous first contact with the klingons led to decades of war.
It doesn't really match up with the continuity presented in Enterprise, but in the TNG episode First Contact, Picard explains the federations first contact policy, saying that disastrous first contact with the klingons led to decades of war.
Which isn't really a contradiction, because he never says that it was Earth's first contact with the Klingons. I'm sure that was the scriptwriters' intent, because ST has always been frustratingly human-centric, but Picard doesn't actually specify whose first contact it was, so there's wiggle room. In A Choice of Futures, I explained that it was actually Vulcan's first contact with the Klingons that had that result, which was a factor in the Vulcans adopting their non-interference policy.
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