Harry Kim... great intuition or poor writing? Or my mistake?

[c0rnedfr0g]

The Hirogen: We first saw one in "Message in a Bottle," but at the time he was nothing more to the audience than some random, unfriendly alien. We did not know the name of his species nor anything else.

Then they're formally introduced in the next episdoe, "Hunters." Yet the crew, including Seven, still seem clueless as to who they are and what their motives are. Then, toward the end, Harry Kims says something to the effect of, "there are more ships coming in. They're Hirogen."

How did he know that? They hadn't encountered Hirogen technology before (the relay stations were oooold) nor any of their species (they'd only seen one on a monitor in "Message"). Did they have "HIROGEN" stamped on the outside of their ships, or does Harry know more than he's letting on (ESP) ???

Am I missing something obvious here?

 

[Lynx]

This thing with Harry and the Hirogen is another example of sloppy writing. It may have had something to do with the fact that the original story was somewhat re-written after Kes was kicked out and since "Year Of Hell" was a sequel to "Before And After" the original story might have been more connected to the events in "Before And After" and therefore Harry was able to identify the ships as Hirogen. They might have forgotten to edit that when they re-wrote the story.

But it can also be the result of downright sloppy writing only. There are more such examples, as when Tuvok recognizes the Kazon ship in "State Of Flux" as a Kazon-Nistrim ship despite the fact that Voyager hadn't had any contact with the Nistrim so far, only with the Kazon-Ogla.

We also have The Doctor's lack of memory i "Parallax" and "Time And Again". In "Caretaker", The Doctor cures Kes from the bruises she had after being prisoner of the Kazon-Ogla. As a doctor and a computer-generated hologram, he would of course have registered the name of his patient. But in "Parallax" he ask Kes what her name is and in "Time And Again" he doesn't seem to have anything about Kes in his files. He's also surprised when Kes and Neelix states that they and Chakotay's Maquis members were brought on board during the journey despite the fact that he actually cured Chakotay from his broken leg in "caretaker" as well as Torres's (and Kim's) mysterious disease which they got in "Caretaker" as well.

 

[Gary7]

Lynx, those are some pretty glaring inconsistencies... I don't remember them and I'm glad I don't... that kind of screw-up bothers me. I wonder if the Voyager production and air dates jump around a lot in the earlier episodes...

 

[Praetor]

Well, there's 'The 37s' being moved from a season one finale to season two...

 

[neogothboy74]

This thing with Harry and the Hirogen is another example of sloppy writing. It may have had something to do with the fact that the original story was somewhat re-written after Kes was kicked out and since "Year Of Hell" was a sequel to "Before And After" the original story might have been more connected to the events in "Before And After" and therefore Harry was able to identify the ships as Hirogen. They might have forgotten to edit that when they re-wrote the story.

I think you might confusing the Hirogen with the Krenim (who are mentioned in 'Before & After' and then seen in "Year of Hell"); the Hirogen don't have anything to do with the episodes you're referencing here. And for the record, I thought the rewrite with Seven in Kes's place was very well done - with a replay of the scene featuring Kes in the other timeline, now filled by Seven. The continuity was breathtaking. So much so, that for all my hatred of the Reset Button, I rather enjoy "The Year of Hell".

We also have The Doctor's lack of memory i "Parallax" and "Time And Again". In "Caretaker", The Doctor cures Kes from the bruises she had after being prisoner of the Kazon-Ogla. As a doctor and a computer-generated hologram, he would of course have registered the name of his patient. But in "Parallax" he ask Kes what her name is and in "Time And Again" he doesn't seem to have anything about Kes in his files. He's also surprised when Kes and Neelix states that they and Chakotay's Maquis members were brought on board during the journey despite the fact that he actually cured Chakotay from his broken leg in "caretaker" as well as Torres's (and Kim's) mysterious disease which they got in "Caretaker" as well.

I can't speak to all of these scenes, but the thing about Chakotay was more about the Maquis joining the crew - which the Doctor wasn't informed of. I think he knew about Chakotay as a person - he just didn't know the circumstances beyond sickbay. I also think that in the beginning the Doctor might have been a bit of a different character as he wasn't meant to be left on; he was just a suppliment; not a real doctor. I'd have to revisit it in more detail, but I've got to get ready; I've got company coming over.

 

[Karnbeln]

There are more such examples, as when Tuvok recognizes the Kazon ship in "State Of Flux" as a Kazon-Nistrim ship despite the fact that Voyager hadn't had any contact with the Nistrim so far, only with the Kazon-Ogla.

My rationalization: The Kazon sects seem to me to be the biggest power in that section of the quadrant. It's very conceivable that they had obtained information about what other sects of Kazon were out there. Such information would be invaluable not only because they were potential enemies, but potential allies as well, since they different sects fought each other.

 

[Lynx]

This thing with Harry and the Hirogen is another example of sloppy writing. It may have had something to do with the fact that the original story was somewhat re-written after Kes was kicked out and since "Year Of Hell" was a sequel to "Before And After" the original story might have been more connected to the events in "Before And After" and therefore Harry was able to identify the ships as Hirogen. They might have forgotten to edit that when they re-wrote the story.

I think you might confusing the Hirogen with the Krenim (who are mentioned in 'Before & After' and then seen in "Year of Hell"); the Hirogen don't have anything to do with the episodes you're referencing here. And for the record, I thought the rewrite with Seven in Kes's place was very well done - with a replay of the scene featuring Kes in the other timeline, now filled by Seven. The continuity was breathtaking. So much so, that for all my hatred of the Reset Button, I rather enjoy "The Year of Hell".

We also have The Doctor's lack of memory i "Parallax" and "Time And Again". In "Caretaker", The Doctor cures Kes from the bruises she had after being prisoner of the Kazon-Ogla. As a doctor and a computer-generated hologram, he would of course have registered the name of his patient. But in "Parallax" he ask Kes what her name is and in "Time And Again" he doesn't seem to have anything about Kes in his files. He's also surprised when Kes and Neelix states that they and Chakotay's Maquis members were brought on board during the journey despite the fact that he actually cured Chakotay from his broken leg in "caretaker" as well as Torres's (and Kim's) mysterious disease which they got in "Caretaker" as well.

I can't speak to all of these scenes, but the thing about Chakotay was more about the Maquis joining the crew - which the Doctor wasn't informed of. I think he knew about Chakotay as a person - he just didn't know the circumstances beyond sickbay. I also think that in the beginning the Doctor might have been a bit of a different character as he wasn't meant to be left on; he was just a suppliment; not a real doctor. I'd have to revisit it in more detail, but I've got to get ready; I've got company coming over.

Ooops, sorry. I did mix up the Hirogen with the Krenim here. I haven't watched season 4-6 of Voyager since some year after they were first aired and just mixed up the names of those species when I read thr thread.

As for the re-write with Seven in Kes's place-I had actually forgotten that, or more correctly done all I could to foget it. It was one of those scenes which made me explode with anger when I watched them once.

Karnbeln wrote:

My rationalization: The Kazon sects seem to me to be the biggest power in that section of the quadrant. It's very conceivable that they had obtained information about what other sects of Kazon were out there. Such information would be invaluable not only because they were potential enemies, but potential allies as well, since they different sects fought each other.

That might be possible.

However, another thing just struck me. When Neelix was attacked by the Vidiians and they stole his lungs, no one, including Neelix himself did seem to know anything about the Vidiians, who they were or so. That is a bit strange. Shouldn't Neelix, who bragged about his knowledge of the area know about the Vidiians? The sector of space which was inhabited by them was almost as big as the Kazon sector which it took Voyager more than a year to get out of.

 

[Praetor]

Neelix indeed should have known more than he often said to, if his own assessment of his expertise was to be believed. It's possible he was exaggerating, and if he was, it would have been nice for another member of the crew to call him out on it.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I remember an entire episode devoted to Neelix worrying about getting a map because Voyager had reached the edge of Neelix's known space. Was that before or after encountering the Vidiians?

 

[Praetor]

That was after - I think season three? Voyager was about to enter a region called the Nekrit Expanse which Neelix had never been to and knew next to nothing about and felt like his 'job security' was threatened.

 

[neogothboy74]

^ Yep. In 'Fair Trade'. That episode is very memorable to me, as right around that time I decided that I was going to stop watching Voyager. I just felt that it wasn't the show I was promised in the first season, and I wasn't happy with the series. And I was deeply annoyed that having a memory and paying attention apparently excluded me from the 'Target Audience'. I missed a few episodes, but then some friends told me they felt that it was improving so I came back to the series. Then left again mid Season 5. I only watched random episodes after that, until the DVDs arrived. I did manage to find some episodes in the later seasons that I enjoyed quite a lot, which was good as I'd paid over $700.00 for those dvds. lol

 

[Jaespol]

^ Yep. In 'Fair Trade'. That episode is very memorable to me, as right around that time I decided that I was going to stop watching Voyager. I just felt that it wasn't the show I was promised in the first season, and I wasn't happy with the series. And I was deeply annoyed that having a memory and paying attention apparently excluded me from the 'Target Audience'. I missed a few episodes, but then some friends told me they felt that it was improving so I came back to the series. Then left again mid Season 5. I only watched random episodes after that, until the DVDs arrived. I did manage to find some episodes in the later seasons that I enjoyed quite a lot, which was good as I'd paid over $700.00 for those dvds. lol

I'm not surprised you left around "Fair Trade" anyway, that episode bored the pants of me. Yeah, the inconsistency of Voyager is probably the worst thing about it. How are we supposed to connect with these people and feel like being a part of their world for 45minutes when we keep getting thrown out again after realising gaping plot holes and inconsistencies. The # of crew members inconsistency annoyed me the most, along with the endless shuttles.