Guinan

[Tribble puncher]

Was she a good character?

Was Whoopie the best choice to play her?

Do you think more could have been done with her character?

I seem to remember not really caring one way or another about her during the show original run, I mean Whoopie was not a Triple A star at the time but she was a household name so I assumed her role was just to bring in ratings, Was I wrong? Was she much more popular than I realized?

I found a carded 1993 Guinan Figure at a flea market today for 1 USD, I felt sorry for it just sitting there so I bought it. Is this how hoarding starts? It does bear a pretty good likeness to Whoopie, could you Imagine working at the action figure plant and staring at these all day? The dreams you'd probably have at night? Crazy.

 

[Paradise City]

She was good in the role. They slotted her in well. She's good in I'Borg, Times Arrow, Yesterday's Enterprise and TBOBW. She's also good in Deja Q, Ensign Ro and The Loss. She could've been very ill-fitting on the show but they actually developed a good role for her and she discharged it well.

 

[Mojochi]

The primary reason for her being brought in was in fact that the actress herself had surprisingly expressed an interest in joining the cast, & such a thing would almost certainly help ratings. The result was that they developed a character that's purpose was to provide the other characters with someone to confide in

While I had no significant issue with Guinan or Whoopi, & she did give Picard someone to relate to more personally,
(Which he suffered a lack of) I always felt that dynamic tragically undercut Counselor Troi's role on board. I'd have been a little dejected if I were Sirtis. Her role wasn't that much to begin with, but once people stopped relating to her in an advisory capacity, all she had left was her empathic offerings, & the occasional odd psychiatric interjection. It almost seems like they brought in Reg Barkley just so she'd have something to do, but even her role as a mental health professional was overlooked, when you have someone with as many hostility issues as Ro, or lonely relationship issues as Geordi, & she's worth nothing in those cases. Troi's stock dropped markedly once Guinan showed up

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I liked Guinan, and Whoopi as Guinan. She did what, a couple episodes per season at most?

I don't think she undercut Troi at all, especially since Troi spent most of her time on the bridge anyway. And there didn't seem to be any other counselors on the ship. I mean, a compliment of over 1000 and only one counselor? Should've been a whole department, or at least a sub-department of medical.

Outside of one or two episodes, they didn't show Troi being much help to the general crew.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Guinan and Troi fulfilled entirely different roles. No reason they should encroach on each other's turf.

Troi is a professional counselor, Guinan is a casual one. The crew go to see Troi when they have a specific problem that needs solving, or when she's doing personnel evaluations. Guinan, being a bartender, is an entirely different counselor.

Like Dr. Boyce said in "The Cage" - sometimes you'll tell your bartender things you'll never tell your doctor.

 

[Forbin]

W

I found a carded 1993 Guinan Figure at a flea market today for 1 USD, I felt sorry for it just sitting there so I bought it. Is this how hoarding starts?

Yes, my freind, I'm afraid so. You're now doomed. That figure is going to look lonely and you'll need to get the whole crew to keep it company.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

The dialog between Guinan and Picard in Measure of a Man was what sold me on watching the series. I had avoided it until a friend twisted my arm to watch "just one episode" and that happened to be the one.

 

[Mojochi]

Guinan and Troi fulfilled entirely different roles. No reason they should encroach on each other's turf.

Troi is a professional counselor, Guinan is a casual one. The crew go to see Troi when they have a specific problem that needs solving, or when she's doing personnel evaluations. Guinan, being a bartender, is an entirely different counselor.

Like Dr. Boyce said in "The Cage" - sometimes you'll tell your bartender things you'll never tell your doctor.

Maybe in real life, but for the purposes of a tv show, it limits the heck out of potential usage for Troi's character. For example, Beverly's career risking crisis in Suspicions. If ever she needed help, it's now, to the point where Guinan is literally faking an illness in order to warm into a conversation. Not only should the professional counselor be all over that, but Troi is like her best friend on board too. They confide in each other all the time, & where is she? Absent, all but for one line that hand waves away that fact. I'm sorry, but this ain't the time for the bartender.

Troi never spent as much as a minute on screen with Ro Laren, in any kind of advisory capacity. It's a wonder to me that she even considered her a friend by the time of Preemptive Strike. Guinan spent considerable time advising Ro, far more than just as a bartender. Now maybe that can be explained away neatly enough, but it's still a big missed opportunity for the Troi character. Ro is a person with issues that scream out for professional aid as much as Barkley imho.

Troi is already hamstrung with one main character, Riker, with whom she'd had an intimate relationship, which undercuts her ability to advise professionally, & now with this special friend of the captain's, she is further distanced from the command crew. Geordi's relationship issues are never addressed in any meaningful way by her, & then to top it all off, she gets intimate with Worf as well, making it less likely she'd be a professional aid to him. Hell, Data confides in her more than most of them.

 

[Kaelef]

You can't really compare Troi and Guinan. The first only rarely stood out in a scene. The mere presence of the second immediately brought a sense of depth, intelligence and wonder to nearly every scene she was in. You knew she was no more a mere bartender than Garak was a mere tailor. Plenty of the blame for that can fall on the writers, but there's no question that the actresses also brought something completely different to the table.

 

[Tribble puncher]

The primary reason for her being brought in was in fact that the actress herself had surprisingly expressed an interest in joining the cast, & such a thing would almost certainly help ratings. The result was that they developed a character that's purpose was to provide the other characters with someone to confide in

While I had no significant issue with Guinan or Whoopi, & she did give Picard someone to relate to more personally,
(Which he suffered a lack of) I always felt that dynamic tragically undercut Counselor Troi's role on board. I'd have been a little dejected if I were Sirtis. Her role wasn't that much to begin with, but once people stopped relating to her in an advisory capacity, all she had left was her empathic offerings, & the occasional odd psychiatric interjection. It almost seems like they brought in Reg Barkley just so she'd have something to do, but even her role as a mental health professional was overlooked, when you have someone with as many hostility issues as Ro, or lonely relationship issues as Geordi, & she's worth nothing in those cases. Troi's stock dropped markedly once Guinan showed up

The thought had never occured to me about Guinan indirectly competing with Troi, I wonder if Whoopie has ever had that brought up in an interview, and if not, what her response would be to the question. It's interesting, like you said, Guinan seemed more approacable in an informal way, I probably would have confided in her over Troi had I been a crew member (If wishes were horses), I wonder what alternate roles they could have had Whoopie do on the ship, My first thought was "She could have been another "Q", but a kinder, more helpful one, then you could have had this whole Devil/Angel on your shoulder dynamic.", but sadly it probably would have been overused in the show and took things a worse direction. I thought maybe they could have Made Whoopies charicter a crew member, like a scientist in stellar cartography because she came from a far away place and had seen many things over the centuries, I supposed that could have worked if handled well, but really, it seems like they found a good spot for her overall.

 

[Mojochi]

The thought had never occured to me about Guinan indirectly competing with Troi, I wonder if Whoopie has ever had that brought up in an interview, and if not, what her response would be to the question. It's interesting, like you said, Guinan seemed more approacable in an informal way, I probably would have confided in her over Troi had I been a crew member (If wishes were horses), I wonder what alternate roles they could have had Whoopie do on the ship, My first thought was "She could have been another "Q", but a kinder, more helpful one, then you could have had this whole Devil/Angel on your shoulder dynamic.", but sadly it probably would have been overused in the show and took things a worse direction. I thought maybe they could have Made Whoopies charicter a crew member, like a scientist in stellar cartography because she came from a far away place and had seen many things over the centuries, I supposed that could have worked if handled well, but really, it seems like they found a good spot for her overall.

That's the thing. For Whoopie & the Guinan character, there was no better way to play it. She had a very perfect kind of thing going on for her. The only drawback is that in some ways, it came at the expense of the character they had originally envisioned for that purpose, & I do agree with the sentiment from others that it had a lot to do with the actresses. Sirtis just never filled that role all that well, from the start .

I just always found it rather silly that instead of professional counseling, someone with real career issues, or a life crisis ended up talking to the bartender instead of the person that they have on board for that, especially since it's supposed to be this highly evolved era where people seemingly don't have a problem confiding in a counselor on a regular basis, enough so that they actually post one on the ship to begin with. During "The Loss" when Deanna quits, & she is referring people to another counselor, I just remember thinking. "Or they could just go to Guinan, like they do anyway"

Then there's that whole scene in The Loss between the two of them that is specifically about counseling, & the possibility of Guinan being one, where Troi states,

Guinan, people come to you to talk about things they want to reveal. A ship's counselor has to get people to talk about things they don't want to reveal.

Ironically, for most of that conversation, it eludes Troi that this is in fact exactly what Guinan is doing right then with her, & she's actually done it many times before & since. For my part, I remember just thinking "Oh god, wouldn't that be great if Guinan became the counselor. They might actually have one people want to listen to" lol

 

[Herbert]

Maybe in real life, but for the purposes of a tv show, it limits the heck out of potential usage for Troi's character. For example, Beverly's career risking crisis in Suspicions. If ever she needed help, it's now, to the point where Guinan is literally faking an illness in order to warm into a conversation. Not only should the professional counselor be all over that, but Troi is like her best friend on board too. They confide in each other all the time, & where is she? Absent, all but for one line that hand waves away that fact. I'm sorry, but this ain't the time for the bartender.

Troi never spent as much as a minute on screen with Ro Laren, in any kind of advisory capacity. It's a wonder to me that she even considered her a friend by the time of Preemptive Strike. Guinan spent considerable time advising Ro, far more than just as a bartender. Now maybe that can be explained away neatly enough, but it's still a big missed opportunity for the Troi character. Ro is a person with issues that scream out for professional aid as much as Barkley imho.

I think the problem is that sometimes what makes sense in real life doesn't always make sense in a TV show. You see this kind of thing all the time in TV shows. Writers sometimes write stories that contain details that don't make sense in real life. Those details can move the story along in a more interesting way though

I'll concede your Crusher example. Troi might have been a better choice than Guinan in that instance. However, the Ro Laren one doesn't hold water with me. Ro was an outsider and a pariah. She had no friends and while Troi, as a professional counselor, should have been able to overcome any animosity that she might have felt towards Ro (if she felt any at all), it makes all the sense in the world (to me anyway) for Guinan to attempt to befriend her. It seems more in line with the Guinan character than in the Troi character

 

[Trek Survivor]

I loved Guinan, and Whoopi Goldberg in the role. They used her exactly the right amount over the years (though a shame we only did two episodes on season 6, and none of 7).

A great character, that really brought some good moments out for other characters - especially Picard, Worf and Geordi.

 

[Mojochi]

it makes all the sense in the world (to me anyway) for Guinan to attempt to befriend her. It seems more in line with the Guinan character than in the Troi character

I'll concede that everything they did with the Guinan character makes sense for her character. They really didn't do much wrong with her character over the years. (My 1 exception being her meddling in Yesterday's Enterprise & then pawning the blame off on Picard alone in Redemption),

However, as a professional counselor, & even as an empath, (As well as being a fairly approachable person in her own right) it ought to also be in Troi's wheelhouse, to be of some use in a situation like Ro Laren. Now, that may have been because of numerous reasons, like the actress not fitting it well enough, or that they had a more preferred character for it, but whatever the reason, it just really made me feel they had short changed the counselor role on the show. I'm willing to admit I may be alone in that though

We all have had conversations about how sometimes Troi is fairly well purposeless on the show. Heck, Galaxy Quest even does a roundabout parody of it. It's a common criticism of the show. That Guinan was aboard certainly did not help that issue any

 

[F. King Daniel]

I liked Guinan, but was disappointed at their explanation for her magical perception of time, space and Q being her time in the Nexus. I once read (I don't recall where, and am not sure how truthful it is) that the original plan was that she was another Q-like being (hence her combat stance/witch fingers in "Q Who"), but the writers realized revealing her as such would necessitate her leaving the show last she solve all their problems every week.

I also remember fan speculation from as soon as her age was revealed, that she was either a Highlander or a Time Lord.

 

[Herbert]

We all have had conversations about how sometimes Troi is fairly well purposeless on the show. Heck, Galaxy Quest even does a roundabout parody of it. It's a common criticism of the show. That Guinan was aboard certainly did not help that issue any

I don't disagree. Next Gen would have been just fine without a counselor character.
But again, this all comes down to what the writers wanted to write and the story they wanted to tell, not what necessarily made more sense. It seems like that episode was meant to be a Guinan episode and not a Troi episode.

 

[gillmanjr]

While I had no significant issue with Guinan or Whoopi, & she did give Picard someone to relate to more personally, (Which he suffered a lack of) I always felt that dynamic tragically undercut Counselor Troi's role on board. I'd have been a little dejected if I were Sirtis. Her role wasn't that much to begin with, but once people stopped relating to her in an advisory capacity, all she had left was her empathic offerings, & the occasional odd psychiatric interjection. It almost seems like they brought in Reg Barkley just so she'd have something to do, but even her role as a mental health professional was overlooked, when you have someone with as many hostility issues as Ro, or lonely relationship issues as Geordi, & she's worth nothing in those cases. Troi's stock dropped markedly once Guinan showed up

I agree with this. Especially in the case of Geordi. There are numerous occasions where Geordi speaks to Guinan about personal problems but is unwilling to talk to Troi. There is one episode where he is ordered to talk to Troi (by Crusher I think) and is obviously opposed to it, even as he's doing it. And yet he is perfectly comfortable talking to Guinan. It actually creates an interesting dynamic between Guinan and Troi, one that I wish had been explored a little bit more. The only episode you really see it is The Loss.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't disagree. Next Gen would have been just fine without a counselor character.
But again, this all comes down to what the writers wanted to write and the story they wanted to tell, not what necessarily made more sense. It seems like that episode was meant to be a Guinan episode and not a Troi episode.

And by writers, we're talking about different ones who inherit things over the course of a series, that they'd rather avoid in lieu of what they'd rather be working on. Characters get left by the wayside in situations like that. Again though, I'm often reminded of comments made by Robert Picardo about how the actors' relationship with the writers can pay dividends in the development of their characters. Actors who engage in the process can influence how the character gets shaped over the course of a show, like with his character or Picard. Those who don't can get overlooked quite a lot. There's plenty of both to go around in post-TOS Star Trek TV

Something about Whoopi made her more interesting to have characters relate to. It's just unfortunate for Troi

 

[Nakita Akita]

I don't get why everyone wanted Yeoi to counsel Geordi and Ro?

Geordi didn't want counselling as far as I remember. I don't recall him having anything wrong with him.
Didn't he get counselling after he turned into that alien bring though?

As for Ro, she didn't have anything wrong with her. She didn't want or need counselling.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Unfortunately, we did not see HOW Guinan became such close friends with Picard. Whoopie shows up, has these general interactions with the crew and next thing you know, completely out of the blue, she's Picard's Yoda, or some shit and it's completely baseless, insofar as what's been presented onscreen. Otherwise, I liked Guinan, I have to say, and I thought she was the perfect solution to the question of what kind of bartender the ship should have. It couldn't just be "Some Guy" ... they wouldn't have had a chance to stand out, necessarily. But bring in an Oscar Winner like Woopie onboard in the weird hat and garb and suddenly this character's more than marginally interesting. I want to get to know that character and I thought the show did a fine job with Guinan, as a result.