Guinan and Picard

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Stroudarian, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. Stroudarian

    Stroudarian Lieutenant Commander Premium Member

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    I'm just curious, is there any episode, script, outline, book or other media that helps to explain the backstory and special relationship between Guinan and Captain Picard? What makes their connection and their relationship "beyond friendship, beyond family"? I do not believe that their relationship holds any sexual basis, so I am just curious. Does anyone have any theories or insight?
     
  2. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've thought about the same thing, maybe some of it comes from what happened in 'Time's Arrow', for the rest... it might have happened off screen. :)
     
  3. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Whoopie knew she wanted to be on TNG but TNG didn't know what it wanted to do with her. The producers felt she was too big an act, compared to the relatively minor stars comprising the main cast and worried that she might outshine them. The only open role the show really had for her was Guinan, of course, and casting Whoopie this way created its own problems for the show. They've got Whoopie, yet they're not doing anything with her, because the part is so small and secondary. This, in turn, begs the question of why Whoopie's playing the part, in the first place. They keep trying to make the part seem bigger, by giving her special insight and personal experience with the newest, coolest baddie in the franchise, namely the Borg. In the same episode, they also heap a load of references in that Guinan and Q are mortal enemies, with a past, the combination of which comes off as kind of retarded, particularly how it relates to Q. She's holding her hands up like cat claws at him, for example and it's like ... well either do something with it, or put your hands down, because it's making you look daft, woman.

    Neither of these qualities are going to persistently come up for her every episode, so they need something to make her seem important, regardless of what the show's about. Finally, they just have her announce her profoundly earnest and meaningful friendship with Picard, which is otherwise baseless. I love Whoopie as Guinan, I think it's so cool that TNG took her on, being such a fan of STAR TREK as she was. But they were just back to throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, rather than going in with any intention or plans for the character and that hurt her a lot. Seeing her little cameo in NEMESIS was kind of irksome, because it's more of the same, really. "Once again, we don't know what to do with Whoopie, but ... here she is, anyway." But Guinan still managed to have some great moments in TNG, here and there -- right up to and including her role in GENERATIONS. They just weren't consistent and sometimes seemed tacked on. But having her on TNG, otherwise, was brilliant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And, at the time, it could not hurt ratings and viewer numbers once she was announced she would be a recurring cast member.
     
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  5. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Stargazer book "Oblivion" gives some of their backstory, its been a while since I read it so can't say much about it.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure it's "Time's Arrow", by which time they'd hyped it up as something so amazing "bald guy saved me one time" was somewhat underwhelming:lol:
     
  7. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not clear when they first met from Picard's perspective. Guinan probably recognized him from way back when and talked to him because she knew they would become great friends, and they struck up a very deep conversation at some point Picard was vulnerable. Perhaps during his recovery from the stabbing?
     
  8. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They had a game they played on the holodeck. There's a bowl of pebbles. Picard and Guinan each stick their hands in, then read each others thoughts.

    They became intimate friends beyond romantic, and beyond family.
     
  9. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like the mystery - not all mysteries need to be explained. Audiences can put in their own personal fanon. And Guinan was shown as being on a plane not unlike the Q,which introduces even more mystique. Some of it might be romantic, some of it might be something most humans can't fathom. I prefer the latter; any soap opera can go into romance and that gets boring very quickly and is the antithesis of the mind-expanding nature good sci-fi should be (IMHO, YMMV).

    Whoopi was a big name back in the day yet she's playing a crewmember. There's no loud pomp, she's just being humble and part of the whole inclusive group (though it's still true Guinan is far more than a mere mortal human). Actress like character, there is something much bigger behind both... but she's not Q, who is as much an opposite of Guinan the way the Borg is to the Federation. Both have some certain similar traits, but how they are used.

    They did throw things at the wall - which adds to the intrigue. It bugged me more than "Generation" tries to answer it but it was all so haphazardly done and cheapens it all, even adding continuity problems into the fray (Borg in Federation space when the Federation was a smaller size??)... :(
     
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  10. Stroudarian

    Stroudarian Lieutenant Commander Premium Member

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    That was an awesome answer.
     
  11. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Guinan is alright, I'm glad the show had her and not some comedic relief bartender. I did like her outfits and that hat thing.

    The biggest problem I have with Guinan is, her advice is often obvious and/or bad advice. Someone as old and wise as her should have been a lot more helpful to the crew. More often she just comes off as stuck up. Especially towards Geordie / Barclay.

    Her backstory in Time's Arrow is completely upstaged by the over the top Mark Twain impersonation. Man I really dislike Time's Arrow.
     
  12. I Am Kirok

    I Am Kirok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I kind of look at her connection to Picard in the Nexus as a driver for their special relationship. If we take the garbledeegook in Generations at face value, Guinan now exists out of time, despite having left the Nexus, and a copy or echo of her will exist there for an eternity (which, if you think of the concepts of a realm where time has no meaning, actually makes sense in a weird way). It also means that there is an echo of Picard in the Nexus. The timeless nature of the realm almost necessitates this.

    I've always assumed that this means that Guinan and Picard, in a strange way, exist in both the "regular universe" and outside time in the "Nexus universe" simultaneously. Given some of Guinan's extra sensitivity, this has given her a sense of things outside the normal time stream in our universe...things she can and does experience via her echo in the time ribbon. Since her echo and Picard's echo basically exist for eternity in the Nexus, this gives her a particularly intimate and extensive "sense" of who he is, his history, etc etc etc.

    I dunno...whatever, right??

    :shrug::ack:
     
  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's face it... Guinan is a very old Time Lord.
     
  14. Betelnut

    Betelnut Ensign Red Shirt

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    I have a friend who has a theory that Guinan's head is the shape of the hat she seemed to always wear. Plausible?
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    No, because she takes it off in Generations.

    It would have been hilarious though.
     
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  16. Betelnut

    Betelnut Ensign Red Shirt

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    LOL, darn it! I never saw Generations (not much of a Star Trek movie fan). Guess that blows that theory!