Graython Tolar

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Flying Spaghetti Monster, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It blows your mind when you realize that "In the Pale Moonlight" detail that Graython Tolar almost did nothing. when you realize he did not do anything. I mean Garak .. and maybe Sisko.. made the program. All Graython did was transfer it onto the stick.. "done" in about three seconds.. I mean all he was hired to do was make it look like it was a genuine Cardassian recording
     
  2. kkt

    kkt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And he didn't even succeed in doing that.

    I feel kind of sorry for him, because he did try to keep his side of the deal, and they got his hopes up. Still, I guess he got a few extra days or weeks past when he was scheduled for execution anyway, so that's something.
     
  3. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah but he clearly didn't do good work, he was worse than his captors, and just not a good person
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Did he deserve to die?
     
  5. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    well no. Does anyone deserve to die? No. People die in war.. soldiers who serve their country certainly "deserve" to die even less than scum like Tolar. So let's not be mince words anymore
     
  6. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Tolar created the program, and spent some time on it. Apparently, Sisko was not satisfied with the first version created, and Tolar had to go back and make a few slight modificationa.

    There's no indication that someone else made it. Tolar is the specially skilled holographer/holoprogrammer.

    I'm curious why we're calling him "a bad person." We know almost nothing about him. He got in a bar fight, yes. Other than that, all we know is that he's associated with Garak(but fears Garak), and that later, Garak refers to him as 'one criminal.'

    So I guess he's a holoprogrammer willing to create forgeries, and at one point did something to warrant ending up in a Klingon prison, which could literally be anything. Perhaps he got too close to a Klingon border.
     
  7. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nope, some people deserve to die.
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps according to Tolar, Sisko did, and Tolar tried to ensure this by giving him a fake that would get him killed by the Romulans?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. kkt

    kkt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Romulans know that Sisko wouldn't try to pull a fake without permission from Starfleet Command. Therefore killing a Starfleet officer acting under orders would be a good way to get the Romulans into the war on the Dominion side. Perhaps that is what Tolar had in mind...
     
  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He might also have wanted the Dominion to win because of his experience with the Klingons. Trying to get the Romulans on the Dominion side would have all but guaranteed Dominion would eliminate the Klingons. He likely didn't care one way or the other about the Federation, but after his last conversation with Sisko, he probably wanted them to be a casualty, too.
     
  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As per dialogue in the episode, Tolar simply didn't do a good enough job. It may be impossible to fake a holorecording at that high of a government level. There's no indication that he intentionally sabatoged it.
     
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  12. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And Garak knew that.(insert evil laugh)
     
  13. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    When Garak says "I had hoped that it would pass inspection," he must have been lying, because if the senator had not discovered it was a fake, Garak's plan might have unravelled. He needed that dead senator and a holorecording that would go beyond scrutiny.
     
  14. HelenofBorg

    HelenofBorg Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    True. He had to plant the bomb on the shuttle just in case the rod didn't pass inspection and the Romulans would expose the plot. He also had to kill Tolar for the same reason, just in case he blabbed about the holo recording. Basically, true to his obsidian order training, he tied up loose ends and ensured that the rod could only have been accepted as genuine (the explosion would seem to have caused any imperfections). Garak did bad things for the right reasons.
     
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  15. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good work or bad, it’s not an excuse to be murdered, and he’d probably been murdered by Garak to cover their tracks if the forgery did work. His work might have been top notch, but then so might have been the Romulans’ latest verification technologies. Was he an asshole? Probably. But we’re his crimes bad enough to be punishable by death?

    That’s a pretty big assumption for the Romulans and for Tolar, given the blood of billions at stake.

    If the rod passed inspection, the rest of the plan wouldn’t have been necessary. Just the murder of Tolar, if Sisko didn’t protect him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  16. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Tolar strikes me as someone who was a somewhat competent criminal but not that competent or smart. Hearing the name Garak made him very afraid.

    Being a criminal also meant that he could be coerced into designing the hologram and to keep his mouth shut, and since he wasn’t apart of any government, nothing he did would be under scrutiny. And if he died, well no one mourns someone like him. Or really investigated that much either.

    I suspect Garak would have killed him even if the program had been good enough to fool Vreenak. They needed somebody at least hopefully capable and also they had full leverage over. An easy loose end to tie up.
     
  17. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

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    Garek is the kind of person that has a plan ready in either individuality.
     
  18. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Tolar was a dead man regardless.

    If it had passed inspection, Garak would have eliminated him to get rid of a loose end.
     
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  19. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    He was on death row in a Klingon prison. Klingons probably give the death penalty for a lot of things that wouldn't be considered that severe in other cultures.

    Kor
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think Tolar was ever going to get out of the situation alive.

    A better question is whether Garak would have proceeded with bombing Vreenak's shuttle if the rod had passed inspection. I suspect so, just to reduce the possibility that a more thorough inspection of the rod (say, on Romulus) would reveal it was a...well, you know...
     
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