Genetic basis for rape.

[Cheapjack]

I started a thread on the Science board about this, and it got closed down, cos there was no scientific basis for it.

There have been some evolutionary scientists who claim that there might be a genetic component for rape. They want geneticists to look into it. There is no scientific evidence as yet.

Some people have mooted the idea that there is no single gene, just a collection. Some people mooted that this should not get you off a rape charge. Some people mooted the idea that it's cultural and social conditions that cause it. It was suggested that if there was a gene and some people have it, it should be treated as an illness, and the owner should be incarcerated, until they were well.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if it was found that ALL men carry this gene, it's just under control more in some men than others?
Or, that if it is just social and cultural, that all men are capable of it, just some control themselves more than others? How would this work? Should all men be locked up? Obviously not, but how should we deal with it? Not even go into this area?

 

[Balrog]

How should we deal with this?

How about lock up the men who commit rape.

 

[Cheapjack]

But wouldn't it be interesting to find out?

Other unsociable traits might be present in all of us.

The present social safeguards may be improved, better education and so on.

I think it would be interesting to know this, even if it was, or was not, the greatest social leveller. Wasn't it Plato who said he could have been a great murderer?

Maybe the present social safeguards against unsociable acts should just be improved, without targeting people, just a blanket increase?

 

[Hermiod]

Is this a "all men are latent rapists" thread ? I do so enjoy those.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I see Cheapjack left out the part where he thinks feminists and lesbians have this alleged "rape gene." Seriously, go check out the SciTech thread. Epic lulz.

 

[Cheapjack]

Robert, you misrepresent me.

I said it could be present, and brought to the surface in behaviour, caused by environment, in some of them, or at least in the peculiar brands of it in a few women,that I have met. There are extreme brands of everything, marxism,capitalism etc. It's not amazing that there could be extreme brands of feminism that ape and perversely encourage, the worst of male behaviour. But, as I said, they are a rarety. And I bet most men would get a bit nervous round them, too! And I think their attitudes and mate preferences would be disavowed by the mainstream purists, too

Its interesting to note how it's difficult to raise this subject without appearing to be a rape apologist or a eugenicist.

It would be interesting to know, I think. I would like to see less of it. In fact, I would like to see rape never happen at all. But it would be ironic if it's present in all men, just under control? Would it be reassuring or not? Reassuring cos it's very rare, but possible, but under control, like other unsociable acts?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Wouldn't it be ironic, if it was found that ALL men carry this gene, it's just under control more in some men than others? Or, that if it is just social and cultural, that all men are capable of it, just some control themselves more than others? How would this work? Should all men be locked up? Obviously not, but how should we deal with it? Not even go into this area?

This is just silly. Obviously, the capability for rape is present in all humans. Just as the capability for murder, theft, lies, and all other anti-ethical behaviours. Anyone that tells you "I am incapable of evil acts" (as opposed to "I choose not to engage in evil acts"), is just trying to fool you or deluding themselves. There is more: if the capability for evil were not inside all of us, that would make free will and ethical choices meaningless.

This is not a religious issue: I am not a Christian and I believe in particular that the "original sin" doctrine is unhealthy bullshit. "Good" and "evil" are defined by human actions and human intelligence, not divine rules. But the capacity for this "human evil" is inside all us, from cradle to grave. I hate to go on full Star Trek nerd mode, but that was the point of The Enemy Within and a bunch of other episodes, and I think there is a great truth in Kirk saying "I will not kill today".

 

[Cheapjack]

So what do we do if we come to that sequence of weird dots and dashes that is the genome and find out that where it is, or if it is there? Along with all the other things? Black them out? Or not even look?

 

[iguana_tonante]

You really have no idea how genetics works, don't you? Rape is an action. You can't have a gene for an action. Searching for that in the genome just doesn't make sense. You won't find it any more that you would find a gene for playing corny country songs on your banjo.

What part is unclear to you?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I'd say the likelihood of what you're suggesting is slim to none.

Rape is a social and behavioral issue, and it stems from many different places. Rapist never rape simply because they 'must rape' and 'can't help themselves'. At least, not the ones I've read talk about why they did it.

It's about power. It's about control. It's about taking something that isn't theirs or taking away something from someone else.

It's not about sex. It's not about lack of control. In fact, it's just the opposite.

That, to me, would indicate that rape is no where near genetic.

This boils down to basic Hobbes. People are born 'evil' and join social contracts to keep themselves safe. In so doing, the social morals of the contract they enter set guidelines for 'right' and 'wrong'.

Not all societies see rape is bad all the time.

Thankfully, my society does.

However, your thread on this topic is questionable to me. If you could provide some even circumstantial evidence that might possible link rape to genetics, we'd all take you more seriously.

 

[Hermiod]

From what I can understand, Cheapjack's argument is basically somewhere along the lines of Freud's theory of Id, Ego and Super-Ego.

The id governs your basic, immediate drives (including your basic drive to reproduce which simply, as far as the id is concerned, means finding the nearest, most attractive fertile female) - the things you need. The ego governs your higher concerns, the things you want and the super-ego governs your conscience.

The suggestion here is that males need to reproduce but their conditioning prevents them from forcing the issue. Without that conditioning they would just do the whole dragging back to their cave thing.

There's no "gene" involved here. The need to reproduce is fundamental to pretty much all life on Earth (well, except Pandas). Problem is that basic needs don't really fit with our view of ourselves as civilised creatures and our ability to choose. Our super-ego, or whatever you want to call it, is just as fundamental as any other part of our psyche. It's an important part of the reason we get to call ourselves sentient and it's also why the "all men are latent rapists" idea that a lot of people like to spout is slander against the entire gender.

Not all societies see rape is bad all the time.

Thankfully, my society does.

Well, that's not entirely true.

 

[Cheapjack]

Do we have to go over all that again:

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/do-we-have-a-rape-gene/

There are some evolutionary psychologists that say that there might be. This has not been looked into genetically yet.

I wonder why?



My intention in starting this thread is to try to get a way to see less of rape. I do not dislike my sex, nor the opposite, though I sometime feel a little 'Q' like about all this!!

I don't think they'll figure this out, until they've figured out not only the genome, but the human brain, too. and that could be another few decades, if not a century. The brain is created by genes, but it is plastic. IQ is inherited, but it can be enhanced. You're not born with a clean hard drive, it has some software preinstalled??

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

From what I can understand, Cheapjack's argument is basically somewhere along the lines of Freud's theory of Id, Ego and Super-Ego.

The id governs your basic, immediate drives (including your basic drive to reproduce which simply, as far as the id is concerned, means finding the nearest, most attractive fertile female) - the things you need. The ego governs your higher concerns, the things you want and the super-ego governs your conscience.

The suggestion here is that males need to reproduce but their conditioning prevents them from forcing the issue. Without that conditioning they would just do the whole dragging back to their cave thing.

There's no "gene" involved here. The need to reproduce is fundamental to pretty much all life on Earth (well, except Pandas). Problem is that basic needs don't really fit with our view of ourselves as civilised creatures and our ability to choose. Our super-ego, or whatever you want to call it, is just as fundamental as any other part of our psyche. It's an important part of the reason we get to call ourselves sentient and it's also why the "all men are latent rapists" idea that a lot of people like to spout is slander against the entire gender.

Not all societies see rape is bad all the time.

Thankfully, my society does.

Well, that's not entirely true.

I have never been a huge fan of Freud. I'm more of a Maslow girl, personally.

But, no, the OP is saying exactly what he means... that rape might be genetic.

Also, I like to think that rape, on the whole, is not accepted socially in my society. The laws in my society would indicate this to be true.

Do we have to go over all that again:

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/do-we-have-a-rape-gene/

There are some evolutionary psychologists that say that there might be. This has not been looked into genetically yet.

I wonder why?



My intention in starting this thread is to try to get a way to see less of rape. I do not dislike my sex, nor the opposite, though I sometime feel a little 'Q' like about all this!!

To stop rape means to find the psychological basis for it because that is what it boils down to.

As others have said, this is a behavior, not a genetic issue.

If you're suggesting, which it seems, that some have a genetic disposition for rape. I still don't think that is enough.

I have a genetic disposition to be fat, but I don't have to be fat. I can choose to eat well and work out. I know this to be true. I'm fat because I eat southern fried everything and sit in front of a computer almost 24-7. See? That's a behavioral choice... not a genetic issue.

 

[iguana_tonante]

We only need to go all over again because you either don't understand of refuse to acknowledge why people are very, very skeptical of your reasoning.

A couple of evolutionary psychologists (a branch which, as already noted in the other thread, is under criticism at the moment for its lack of scientific rigor) suggested an evolutionary reason for rape, not a genetic one. While it is true that genetics is the basis of evolution, complex behaviours are not encoded in a specific genetic locus, but stem from the interactions of many, many factors, biological, psychological and social.

This has not been looked into genetically because it doesn't make sense to search for it in the genome, not because of there is some kind of conspiracy theory or suppression of research as you seem to suggest with you "roll eyes".

 

[Hermiod]

I have never been a huge fan of Freud. I'm more of a Maslow girl, personally.

I'm only regurgitating my what the A-Level in Psychology I received 14 years ago says.

But, no, the OP is saying exactly what he means... that rape might be genetic.

I did say "something along the lines of" - the idea that there is some basic, unavoidable predisposition here - whether it's genetic, psychological or some combination of the two is incidental.

Also, I like to think that rape, on the whole, is not accepted socially in my society. The laws in my society would indicate this to be true.

Well, for male on female rape, sure. Other kinds, not so much.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

It's because the possibility is non-existent.

Evolutionary psychologists grapple with the asking why we do what we do from a mental perspective, not a genetic perspective. If they did, then it would be called Evolutionary Genetics...

 

[Hermiod]

It's because the possibility is non-existent.

Evolutionary psychologists grapple with the asking why we do what we do from a mental perspective, not a genetic perspective. If they did, then it would be called Evolutionary Genetics...

Sorry, but who are you replying to here ?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I have never been a huge fan of Freud. I'm more of a Maslow girl, personally.

I'm only regurgitating my what the A-Level in Psychology I received 14 years ago says.

I haven't taken a psych class since college. That was... longer than I want to admit to.

I did say "something along the lines of" - the idea that there is some basic, unavoidable predisposition here - whether it's genetic, psychological or some combination of the two is incidental.

I'm not so sure with him, but, perhaps...

Well, for male on female rape, sure. Other kinds, not so much.

I think I'm being a little selfish here. As a woman, I will admit that I am much more protected from rape than a man in my society is, which is a shame.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

It's because the possibility is non-existent.

Evolutionary psychologists grapple with the asking why we do what we do from a mental perspective, not a genetic perspective. If they did, then it would be called Evolutionary Genetics...

Sorry, but who are you replying to here ?

Bouncing off iguana...

You popped in between us.

That's the story of my life, really. People just keep coming in between me and iguana.

 

[Cheapjack]

From what I can understand, Cheapjack's argument is basically somewhere along the lines of Freud's theory of Id, Ego and Super-Ego.

The id governs your basic, immediate drives (including your basic drive to reproduce which simply, as far as the id is concerned, means finding the nearest, most attractive fertile female) - the things you need. The ego governs your higher concerns, the things you want and the super-ego governs your conscience.

The suggestion here is that males need to reproduce but their conditioning prevents them from forcing the issue. Without that conditioning they would just do the whole dragging back to their cave thing.

There's no "gene" involved here. The need to reproduce is fundamental to pretty much all life on Earth (well, except Pandas). Problem is that basic needs don't really fit with our view of ourselves as civilised creatures and our ability to choose. Our super-ego, or whatever you want to call it, is just as fundamental as any other part of our psyche. It's an important part of the reason we get to call ourselves sentient and it's also why the "all men are latent rapists" idea that a lot of people like to spout is slander against the entire gender.

Not all societies see rape is bad all the time.

Thankfully, my society does.

Well, that's not entirely true.

I have never been a huge fan of Freud. I'm more of a Maslow girl, personally.

But, no, the OP is saying exactly what he means... that rape might be genetic.

Also, I like to think that rape, on the whole, is not accepted socially in my society. The laws in my society would indicate this to be true.

Do we have to go over all that again:

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/do-we-have-a-rape-gene/

There are some evolutionary psychologists that say that there might be. This has not been looked into genetically yet.

I wonder why?



My intention in starting this thread is to try to get a way to see less of rape. I do not dislike my sex, nor the opposite, though I sometime feel a little 'Q' like about all this!!

To stop rape means to find the psychological basis for it because that is what it boils down to.

As others have said, this is a behavior, not a genetic issue.

If you're suggesting, which it seems, that some have a genetic disposition for rape. I still don't think that is enough.

I have a genetic disposition to be fat, but I don't have to be fat. I can choose to eat well and work out. I know this to be true. I'm fat because I eat southern fried everything and sit in front of a computer almost 24-7. See? That's a behavioral choice... not a genetic issue.

Admiral,

You choose not to be fat, cos it's bad for you. You have the choice. The knowledge is good. Rape is bad for other people. If the gene is there, in all or some men, should the choice to resist be theirs, an educated one?

Whatever happens, there should be more social 'conditioning'. It's a rare thing, anyway, isn't it? Rarer than theft?

Iguana,

Why is the article called 'Is there a rape gene?'???

Notice the word 'is'. Notice the word 'there'. Notice the way round they are. Notice the question mark. Notice the word gene. Who looks into genes? Geneticists!