Generations warp core breach and shield modulation issues?

[James89901]

Hi, I'm new to star trek forums, so I'm not sure exactly what the general opinions are when it comes to plot holes and possible solutions to what on the surface seem quite simple solutions but yet are made impossible to solve for the crew for the sake of the movie and how the writers wanted things to pan out. I always find it interesting to think of ways the crew could of got out of situations of which they failed to do in the movies/TV shows, and Generations has a few of those moments. These two have probably been brought up before but anyway...

The warp core coolant breach: I haven't read exactly how star trek explains their matter/anti-matter reactors. Can anyone explain to me how a coolant breach would cause a warp core breach? Admittedly I haven't thought all that much on it, but why was a loss of coolant so catastrophic? What prevented Geordi from simply closing off the matter and/or anti-matter injectors?

I'm assuming they use coolant to extract the heat from the reactions and that a loss in coolant would eventually lead to a build up of heat in the reactor and cause a breach which would eventually lead to loss of power and a containment failure of the anti-matter which would then cause a massive explosion like in the movie. Yet I don't know why the reaction can't be stopped even if there is a coolant leak. Was it explained earlier on that the injectors were jammed or something?

Also one more point on this. If the core is susceptible to destruction from a coolant leak, then surely a starship as advanced as the enterprise would have containment force fields? I mean they can contain fires using force fields. They can contain huge explosions in level 10 force fields. So surely one could hold in the coolant as well in a sort of crude plug of the leak. Rather it just slipped out into the warp core engine room.

The second problem must definitely of been addressed on here. The way the Klingons got through the shield...

Wouldn't they of just remodulated their shield frequency? Haha What should of been written into the script was that once the Klingons had the modulation, they then should of targetted the shield generators and taken them offline. That would of then provided an ongoing attack that was plausible and still fit the script well.

I definitely feel that the warp core breach could of been handled better. Assuming there was no mention of the injectors being jammed that I might of missed.

What do you guys think? Am I right about the warp core point or was there something I missed, or perhaps the way their reactor works is different somehow and a loss in coolant can't be overcome to prevent a breach?

 

[USS Firefly]

Short answer, the Enterprise could destroy the BOP in seconds without shields

 

[James89901]

Short answer, the Enterprise could destroy the BOP in seconds without shields

Well yeah haha But do you know anything about that scene with the warp core and how it works regards to my comments?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I presume the coolant keeps many parts of the warp reactor systems cool, so without it they're prone to malfunction and catastrophic failure. The ejection system had already failed, so I assume a lot was going wrong with the system at the time.

FWIW, it's the same that happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

 

[Timo]

The warp core coolant breach: I haven't read exactly how star trek explains their matter/anti-matter reactors. Can anyone explain to me how a coolant breach would cause a warp core breach? Admittedly I haven't thought all that much on it, but why was a loss of coolant so catastrophic? What prevented Geordi from simply closing off the matter and/or anti-matter injectors?

It's unknown whether the annihilation reactions would make the reactor very hot or not. But I could imagine cooling being important for maintaining the forcefields that keep annihilation from happening when it's not desired. Lose cooling, lose the fields, everything goes kaboom - perhaps the actual antimatter tanks hold the longest, but a valve here blowing will cause a cascade all the way through there, and thar she blows...

The second problem must definitely of been addressed on here. The way the Klingons got through the shield... Wouldn't they of just remodulated their shield frequency?

No doubt. And then the Klingons would modulate their weapons accordingly - after all, they would be looking at the very dial that tells them the frequency, through the eyes of LaForge.

The remodulation not having any effect must have confused the hell out of the heroes. It would take them extra time to recover from the shock of their clever trickery not working!

(Apart from that, modulating the shields sounds like a procedure that would weaken them or wear down the machinery. It's not a good idea unless one knows there's a demand for it, such as when facing the Borg. If it's not helping against the Klingons, then it should be abandoned at once - pretty much like how Keogh abandoned shielding altogether when it became clear it was not helping at all, in "Jem'Hadar". Although this then made his ship vulnerable to a kinetic attack, a drawback not present in the Generations case.)

I definitely feel that the warp core breach could of been handled better. Assuming there was no mention of the injectors being jammed that I might of missed.

Why should anything be mentioned? LaForge said there was nothing he could do. That automatically covers everything you might ever think of, because LaForge knows the machinery better than you do.

Realistically, he also knows the machinery better than Riker, so the XO would not be stupid enough to respond with "But how about...?" when he assuredly would be five steps behind the Chief Engineer there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[James89901]

I presume the coolant keeps many parts of the warp reactor systems cool, so without it they're prone to malfunction and catastrophic failure. The ejection system had already failed, so I assume a lot was going wrong with the system at the time.

FWIW, it's the same that happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Yeah you're right. The coolant would probably keep temperatures of many reactor systems at manageable levels.

I think I have a plausible explanation now...

Perhaps the coolant leak Geordi was referring to was somehow to do with the magnetic containment system they have in place for the anti-matter. A leak in that coolant could lead to overheating of the systems which power the containment fields and then lead to total containment failure. Which would cause the anti-matter to escape and react with the surrounding matter and an explosion would occur.

 

[Doctor Bombay]

FWIW, it's the same that happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

You noticed that too, huh? Even the same "Geordi looks in a panel, closes it, walks away, and it explodes two seconds later" scheme.

 

[James89901]

It's unknown whether the annihilation reactions would make the reactor very hot or not. But I could imagine cooling being important for maintaining the forcefields that keep annihilation from happening when it's not desired. Lose cooling, lose the fields, everything goes kaboom - perhaps the actual antimatter tanks hold the longest, but a valve here blowing will cause a cascade all the way through there, and thar she blows...



No doubt. And then the Klingons would modulate their weapons accordingly - after all, they would be looking at the very dial that tells them the frequency, through the eyes of LaForge.

The remodulation not having any effect must have confused the hell out of the heroes. It would take them extra time to recover from the shock of their clever trickery not working!

(Apart from that, modulating the shields sounds like a procedure that would weaken them or wear down the machinery. It's not a good idea unless one knows there's a demand for it, such as when facing the Borg. If it's not helping against the Klingons, then it should be abandoned at once - pretty much like how Keogh abandoned shielding altogether when it became clear it was not helping at all, in "Jem'Hadar". Although this then made his ship vulnerable to a kinetic attack, a drawback not present in the Generations case.)



Why should anything be mentioned? LaForge said there was nothing he could do. That automatically covers everything you might ever think of, because LaForge knows the machinery better than you do.

Realistically, he also knows the machinery better than Riker, so the XO would not be stupid enough to respond with "But how about...?" when he assuredly would be five steps behind the Chief Engineer there.

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah I actually just posted about the containment field coolant right as you posted your response haha. So yeah I totally agree with all of that for sure.

What do you mean the annihilation reactions are unknown to cause the reactor to heat up? The idea for the warp core is based on real world theories more or less. The matter/anti-matter reactions in star trek still produce energy in the form of photons, just like in reality. This is where the crew get their energy source from to power the warp engines. What do you mean it's unknown that these types of reactions wouldn't cause the reactor to heat up? Like are you saying that the star trek reactor is built in such a way that could contain unlimited energy? Because that would mean no explosion would be possible...

Well I think Geordi would be more preoccupied with issues with the warp core than a simple task like remodulating the shields. In fact it was even seen that he was the one working directly on the warp core issues. An ensign could be left to the shield modulation terminal. I like my way better, where the Klingons immediately take out the shield generators.

Haha I'm not having a discussion about La Forge here and how obviously in the star trek universe he is a master engineer and the whole crew would certainly trust his word and not ask for explainations. I'm rather attempting to understand and discuss the Hollywood writers and the choices they made in the script. I'm not here to have it out with La Forge himself haha.

However

 

[Qonundrum]

Hi, I'm new to star trek forums, so I'm not sure exactly what the general opinions are when it comes to plot holes and possible solutions to what on the surface seem quite simple solutions but yet are made impossible to solve for the crew for the sake of the movie and how the writers wanted things to pan out. I always find it interesting to think of ways the crew could of got out of situations of which they failed to do in the movies/TV shows, and Generations has a few of those moments. These two have probably been brought up before but anyway...

Possibly, but - and this notion just dawned on me, which is odd because I've not had my morning gallon of coffee yet but I digress -new posts covering sometimes familiar material can lead to new perspectives.

The warp core coolant breach: I haven't read exactly how star trek explains their matter/anti-matter reactors. Can anyone explain to me how a coolant breach would cause a warp core breach? Admittedly I haven't thought all that much on it, but why was a loss of coolant so catastrophic? What prevented Geordi from simply closing off the matter and/or anti-matter injectors?

Think a car and its radiator. If the radiator's fluid leaks, the liquid no longer flows around the engine to get warmed up then passed back through the radiator to cool down. A similar process is done for a liquid cooled computer CPU you can buy off the shelf at a computer store. Don't nuclear reactors have a liquid cooling system of sorts as well? But if there's nothing that can cool down a component that heats, the unit will burn out. Or explode. Depending on what's inside.

I'm assuming they use coolant to extract the heat from the reactions and that a loss in coolant would eventually lead to a build up of heat in the reactor and cause a breach which would eventually lead to loss of power and a containment failure of the anti-matter which would then cause a massive explosion like in the movie. Yet I don't know why the reaction can't be stopped even if there is a coolant leak. Was it explained earlier on that the injectors were jammed or something?

Fry said it best in "The Birdbot of Ice-catraz" - if only there were 6001 hulls then there would have been no leak.

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In seriousness, there are only so many safety options available and injectors and other components only add to the inevitable complexity. But it makes the "D" especially vulnerable, if Enterprise has been in battles with shields down before and could withstand four or five phaser hits.

Also one more point on this. If the core is susceptible to destruction from a coolant leak, then surely a starship as advanced as the enterprise would have containment force fields? I mean they can contain fires using force fields. They can contain huge explosions in level 10 force fields. So surely one could hold in the coolant as well in a sort of crude plug of the leak. Rather it just slipped out into the warp core engine room.

Depends on where the force fields get their power from. The main engine, a la the phasers (per TMP)? A secondary power generator? More power generators means more potential for big boom-boom action. To be fair, no ship past the 1701-A probably used main engine power for phasers, they found better ways to make the weapon more powerful without straining other systems relying on the same power sourece.

In general, force fields are stupid - if all 6001 power generators go out then they're toast. And while it's a lovely thought that solar power and super capacitors could store energy, it goes back to the same problem.

Then again, if they're toast for one reason they might be for many. But given the size and volume of outer space, I'd want redundancy and enough spare parts at ready-made manufacture. Remember, if lithium batteries slowly lose their ability to hold a change the moment their construction is completed on the assembly line...

The second problem must definitely of been addressed on here. The way the Klingons got through the shield...

Wouldn't they of just remodulated their shield frequency? Haha What should of been written into the script was that once the Klingons had the modulation, they then should of targetted the shield generators and taken them offline. That would of then provided an ongoing attack that was plausible and still fit the script well.

That bugged me as well. I pretty much guessed they can only use it for limited time periods as the energy drain is enormous. That, or the plot required it to work out that way.

I definitely feel that the warp core breach could of been handled better. Assuming there was no mention of the injectors being jammed that I might of missed.

What do you guys think? Am I right about the warp core point or was there something I missed, or perhaps the way their reactor works is different somehow and a loss in coolant can't be overcome to prevent a breach?

Losing coolant with no backup pretty much means there's no way out, and apparently the engine's "off" switch was also jammed -- but if only they had 6001 backup hoses!

 

[Qonundrum]

You noticed that too, huh? Even the same "Geordi looks in a panel, closes it, walks away, and it explodes two seconds later" scheme.

I saw it as well. A bit of a cut'n'paste except the "I estimate n minute(s) to a warp core breach!!" where n was exponentially increased in GEN so it's not a total cut'n'paste. Though if they can only barely get everyone to scamper out of the Engineering/secondary hull by 4 minutes 27 seconds or whatever, leaving just barely enough time to separate and then *BOOM* at the 5 minute mark... no site-to-site super-mega-transporters or numerous smaller ones dotted throughout what is clearly a big ship?

 

[James89901]

Possibly, but - and this notion just dawned on me, which is odd because I've not had my morning gallon of coffee yet but I digress -new posts covering sometimes familiar material can lead to new perspectives.



Think a car and its radiator. If the radiator's fluid leaks, the liquid no longer flows around the engine to get warmed up then passed back through the radiator to cool down. A similar process is done for a liquid cooled computer CPU you can buy off the shelf at a computer store. Don't nuclear reactors have a liquid cooling system of sorts as well? But if there's nothing that can cool down a component that heats, the unit will burn out. Or explode. Depending on what's inside.



Fry said it best in "The Birdbot of Ice-catraz" - if only there were 6001 hulls then there would have been no leak.

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In seriousness, there are only so many safety options available and injectors and other components only add to the inevitable complexity. But it makes the "D" especially vulnerable, if Enterprise has been in battles with shields down before and could withstand four or five phaser hits.





That bugged me as well. I pretty much guessed they can only use it for limited time periods as the energy drain is enormous. That, or the plot required it to work out that way.



Losing coolant with no backup pretty much means there's no way out, and apparently the engine's "off" switch was also jammed -- but if only they had 6001 backup hoses!

Hahaha the fry thing. Such a good line

Yeah a bit further up the post I came to the conclusion that the anti-matter containment fields were most likely the system that was affected with the coolant leak.

Yes modern fission reactors have a lot of coolant running through primary and auxiliary control systems. They are however not all networked with the same hardware systems that are in place to prevent meltdown. Failing an automated attempt to dump the fuel rods, for example, there are manual release options available. Therefore coolant problems relating to electronic equipment is quite far removed from being a highly probable threat to meltdown. Which is why I initially only thought about the coolants role in it's lowering of temperature of the water travelling through the reactor, so that the water can absorb as much energy as possible. Because this is a role the coolant plays which is much higher on the list of probable causes for a meltdown if something goes terribly wrong.

What do you mean the energy drain was enormous on with regards to the Klingon part? Do you mean the energy drain on seeing through Geordi's visor? Maybe I misread something here haha.

 

[James89901]

I saw it as well. A bit of a cut'n'paste except the "I estimate n minute(s) to a warp core breach!!" where n was exponentially increased in GEN so it's not a total cut'n'paste. Though if they can only barely get everyone to scamper out of the Engineering/secondary hull by 4 minutes 27 seconds or whatever, leaving just barely enough time to separate and then *BOOM* at the 5 minute mark... no site-to-site super-mega-transporters or numerous smaller ones dotted throughout what is clearly a big ship?

Yeah good point. They should definitely have mass transporters throughout the ship. It'd certainly make an evacuation easier, especially if the script didn't give them a whole 5 minutes haha.

 

[James89901]

I watched the scene again and some more possible evidence that it's coolant relating to the anti-matter containment fields is that right before the leak occurs, Geordi says "the magnetic interlocks are ruptured". These are most likely used for containment of the anti-matter.

The only thing is, that he is looking into this issue at a point that is not where the coolant leak occurs. So it might of just been a coincidence he was talking about that when the leak occured and also a coincidence that the panel he was checking, in reference to the interlocks, was destroyed when the leak happened.

They are probably related. I just thought I'd mention how they might not be for the sake of full disclosure.

 

[Timo]

The ship has at least 20 distinct transporter rooms, as referenced in "11001001". Probably plenty for evacuating all the people who aren't actually in charge of securing the section being evacuated - plus a swarm of panicking kids who can't follow evacuation instructions...

Whether the core should glow white-hot from all the annihilation going on is basically unknowable. The reaction supposedly doesn't generate heat for running a steam turbine or a reciprocating engine or anything - instead, it somehow "energizes warp plasma", by apparently utterly fictional means. Does this process self-cool the reactor, or is a separate cooling system taking care of waste heat? How is the waste heat generated? From waste radiation impinging on wall materials? But is there such a thing as waste radiation in this unknown process? Or does it all go into energizing this plasma, whichever way, after which the energies are carried away to the warp coils where an equally magical conversion process takes place?

Nuclear reactors today generate massive amounts of heat. They don't get significantly hotter than automobile Otto engines, though, and their cooling needs don't grow linearly let alone exponentially in relation to their exploitable output (which also happens to be heat). That is, their functioning is based on carrying of heat away to an application to begin with, there seldom being a need for separate "coolant". That the warp core does have a component called "coolant" rather than, say, "working fluid" may indicate it does require cooling that is separate from its desired output. Or then the coolant may be unrelated to the core - as it's never leaking from the core...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[James89901]

The ship has at least 20 distinct transporter rooms, as referenced in "11001001". Probably plenty for evacuating all the people who aren't actually in charge of securing the section being evacuated - plus a swarm of panicking kids who can't follow evacuation instructions...

Whether the core should glow white-hot from all the annihilation going on is basically unknowable. The reaction supposedly doesn't generate heat for running a steam turbine or a reciprocating engine or anything - instead, it somehow "energizes warp plasma", by apparently utterly fictional means. Does this process self-cool the reactor, or is a separate cooling system taking care of waste heat? How is the waste heat generated? From waste radiation impinging on wall materials? But is there such a thing as waste radiation in this unknown process? Or does it all go into energizing this plasma, whichever way, after which the energies are carried away to the warp coils where an equally magical conversion process takes place?

Nuclear reactors today generate massive amounts of heat. They don't get significantly hotter than automobile Otto engines, though, and their cooling needs don't grow linearly let alone exponentially in relation to their exploitable output (which also happens to be heat). That is, their functioning is based on carrying of heat away to an application to begin with, there seldom being a need for separate "coolant". That the warp core does have a component called "coolant" rather than, say, "working fluid" may indicate it does require cooling that is separate from its desired output. Or then the coolant may be unrelated to the core - as it's never leaking from the core...

Timo Saloniemi

Huh?? There is always a need for separate coolant in modern nuclear reactors...

Both pressurized and boiling water reactors use secondary coolant lines to extract heat. Albeit both lines serve separate purposes, they both, more or less can certainly lead to meltdown in some circumstances.

A pressurized reactors secondary water coolant line extracts the heat from the highly pressurized primary coolant line which runs through the reactor. The secondary line is then what interacts with the turbines. A boiling water reactors secondary coolant is used in a more indirect way in the form of condenser fluid to cool the heat which has just been used within the primary coolant line to turn the turbines.

A failure in either secondary line, whilst the primary line is still active, leads to meltdown.

Anyway... The original question I had has been resolved.

We must of been watching different movies haha Because I saw plenty of adults and non-uniform people running alongside those kids in the hallways of the ship.