Gargoyles: Questions?

[ReadyAndWilling]

looking back on it, it might have been better if the red robot was just a clever robot and not xanatos.

I can't imagine why. Then it would've just been a random action story with no actual meaning. The whole point of the story was about Xanatos proving to himself that he still had "the edge" and was able to both outfight and outwit his opponents. Without that, there's no story at all.

yah, that's true. i really liked the idea of goliath battling the robot. "no machine, you'll not get rid of me that easily!"

i really liked the combat scene between the steel clan and the man. clan.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

i'm watching 'double jeopardy' now and the animation seems different when gol is fighting the robot at the beginning, almost like it was made at a different studio.

 

[Christopher]

^Yes, as with most animated TV series of the '80s and '90s, and many subsequently, the animation was farmed out to various overseas studios, so the look and quality are variable from episode to episode.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

oh, ok. i'm still loving this show.

i'd love to get into an animated show with serious plot lines. there was an 'invasion' type show i remember watching in the early 2000's/late 90's. that had long arcs, too.

 

[Mr Light]

I remember a show called "Invasion America" where Leonard Nimoy was the voice of the alien leader and it was about a human kid who finds out he's alien and his people are invading. It only lasted 13 episodes and is not available anywhere at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_America

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Gargoyles is epic still. If Disney would start airing some of their old stuff... WITHOUT THE EDITS, DAMMIT!!!...I think they'd get better ratings... But no, they have to air all the live-action teen sitcoms and Phinneas and Ferb ad nauseum.

I remember correlating Demona with Deanna Troi as the Tal Shiar commander. That was fun!

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

I remember a show called "Invasion America" where Leonard Nimoy was the voice of the alien leader and it was about a human kid who finds out he's alien and his people are invading. It only lasted 13 episodes and is not available anywhere at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_America

yep, that's it.

i just watched 'the green' and it was pretty damn good. i like how they explore different mythologies.

 

[Mr Light]

So this thread encouraged me to look up Gargoyles and start watching it again. This is the first time I've seen it in order, since the syndication strips were all messed up. I remember making quite a game out of it in high school, trying to figure out what order the episodes came in (didn't have the internet then!).

So, fifteen years later, here's my thoughts:
--The animation is worse than I remember. I remember color coding the quality on my little list, red, gold, blue, and black. But even the "reds" don't look as good as I remember.
--They use the same three music beats over and over again. it's pretty annoying!
--There's tons of hints about the true nature of Owen even in the first season. Cool.
--I feel much safer now declaring Avatar Last Airbender the greatest animated series of all time

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

yeah, i noticed the music as well, haha.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

that fight scene between the gargs and the steel clan in 'the edge' is just so damn good

 

[Hound of UIster]

--I feel much safer now declaring Avatar Last Airbender the greatest animated series of all time

Yes well Avatar didn't spend 20 episodes on a meaningless quest that went nowhere though it had its own problems.

Gargoyles really jumped the shark with the filler in the second half of the second season.

 

[DonIago]

Though I'd say they made up for it with the last few episodes of the season.

 

[Christopher]

Yes well Avatar didn't spend 20 episodes on a meaningless quest that went nowhere though it had its own problems.

Gargoyles really jumped the shark with the filler in the second half of the second season.

At the time, most animated series were still episodic. Gargoyles was innovative in having an arc at all; it's not fair to say that its more episodic portions were somehow a failure, when they were on a par with how contemporary shows were done throughout.

And I wouldn't say the Avalon quest went nowhere. It revealed the existence of other surviving gargoyle clans, which was a major, transformative discovery. It allowed the Goliath-Angela relationship to develop, including bringing about Angela's discovery of her parentage. It allowed Brooklyn to mature into a leadership role in Goliath's absence. It introduced the Children of Oberon and laid the groundwork for "The Gathering," which was a major arc story. And it introduced new characters and story elements which would have borne fruit in subsequent seasons and spinoffs if Disney hadn't let Greg Weisman go (and some of which did bear fruit in the Gargoyles comics).

 

[Mr Light]

I much preferred the Oberon's Children stuff to the regular NYC stories. Oberon was by far the best part of the show even though he's only in three episodes.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Yes well Avatar didn't spend 20 episodes on a meaningless quest that went nowhere though it had its own problems.

Gargoyles really jumped the shark with the filler in the second half of the second season.

At the time, most animated series were still episodic. Gargoyles was innovative in having an arc at all; it's not fair to say that its more episodic portions were somehow a failure, when they were on a par with how contemporary shows were done throughout.

And I wouldn't say the Avalon quest went nowhere. It revealed the existence of other surviving gargoyle clans, which was a major, transformative discovery. It allowed the Goliath-Angela relationship to develop, including bringing about Angela's discovery of her parentage. It allowed Brooklyn to mature into a leadership role in Goliath's absence. It introduced the Children of Oberon and laid the groundwork for "The Gathering," which was a major arc story. And it introduced new characters and story elements which would have borne fruit in subsequent seasons and spinoffs if Disney hadn't let Greg Weisman go (and some of which did bear fruit in the Gargoyles comics).

QFT!

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^Seconded.

 

[Hound of UIster]

It revealed the existence of other surviving gargoyle clans, which was a major, transformative discovery. It allowed the Goliath-Angela relationship to develop, including bringing about Angela's discovery of her parentage. It allowed Brooklyn to mature into a leadership role in Goliath's absence.

But how much of these threads were actually touched upon in those Avalon episodes? The bulk of the episodes would have been more meaningful if they did address many of these issues that you noted, but must of the episodes were meaningless filler that introduced one shot characters that never appeared again.

The revelation of more surviving gargoyles across the world isn't treated as the serious revelation it is until the end when they return to NYC. The Goliath-Angela thing was handled alright. But Brooklyn and a lot of the NYC cast didn't receive their due. We only got two episodes with him as leader and dealing with Goliath's absence.

And the Quest episodes really devalued the Children of Oberon in my book. Previously they were strange and mysterious like Puck and the Weird Sisters, but many of the episodes really devolved many of them into one-shot villains with tenuous motives. And the backstory with Oberon and the Gathering really undermined the Archmage's supposed millenium spanning plan for world domination. Looking at it, those episodes are really when the wheels begin falling off the show. I think the finale made up for it, but it could have been much better if it didn't have the large stumbling block.

 

[Christopher]

But how much of these threads were actually touched upon in those Avalon episodes? The bulk of the episodes would have been more meaningful if they did address many of these issues that you noted, but must of the episodes were meaningless filler that introduced one shot characters that never appeared again.

You don't prove an argument merely by restating it. And I again refute the idea that a story is "meaningless" just because it isn't part of a continuing arc. That's crap. A story is meaningful if it is entertaining in its own right. It shouldn't have to be just a setup for something else that happens later. That's nice to have as a bonus, but what matters most is that each individual story be satisfying within itself.

And like I said, that was normal back then, and for a long time beforehand. Look at its most acclaimed contemporary, Batman: The Animated Series. That was an episodic series if ever there was one. Few of its episodes were connected by any larger arc; most of them were completely self-contained 22-minute stories. Does that mean most of B:TAS was "meaningless?" Of course not. The meaning of a story is in the story itself. Serialization is an option, not a requirement. We've fetishized serialization so much in recent years that too many of us have forgotten it's not the only way to tell a story.

And again, the Avalon arc would have had more payoff if the series had continued as Greg Weisman intended. If it feels unsatisfactorily arc-ish to you, that's because the arcs were cut off before they could be resolved. It's the nature of Greg Weisman's series plotting that even though the episodes can stand on their own, they nonetheless have elements that are meant to pay off down the road. But if the show gets cancelled or the showrunner gets canned, that payoff won't come. (Which is one of the reasons why serialization is not an intrinsically superior form of storytelling. At least episodic stories get to be told in their entirety every time.)