Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Nth Doctor, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Which is perfectly in keeping with her history. Since her brother died, she's never been challenged, she's surrounded by sycophants.

    Now she has to deal with people on her own level, who don't treat her as a queen/god/khalisi, and it shows. She's been playing the Game of Thrones on "Easy" mode, and that doesn't work when you're dealing with the seven kingdoms.


    I'm reminded of this quote:
    It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well.

    Jon never wanted leadership. Neither did Ned. Renly, Stannis, Cersei, Joffery, Greyjoy, Danyeris, even Robb, all did.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  2. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But she does have a choice. Jon has the true claim to the throne. He is the rightful Targaryen heir. If the good guys win, it makes the most sense. Given that she has his ear, she would likely be the power behind the throne anyway, but he is the rightful king.

    Unlikely theory: Dany, Jon, Cersei and all their advisors will get together, and decide that a monarchy is wrong, so they will let the people decide. They will have a constitutional convention and establish a representative republic with separate but equal branches--the legislative, the executive and the judicial....

    I look at this as Dany being more qualified than Cersei to rule the totality of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany is better than Cersei, but still not the right choice.

    Ok, so let's say Dany spares the innocents. She doesn't use her greatest weapon--her last dragon. Clearly Cersei can't be allowed to remain on the throne, and how does she deal with the human shields?

    I don't know if I call this a no win scenario, but it's something that the writers have to deal with and I look forward to that.

    Do we know for a fact that all 163 masters did that, and did they all participate?

    Even the Nazis got a fair trial. And was every member of the German army executed? Every officer? Or only the top of the top?

    On this show, sons inherit the title and estate of their fathers. Let's get creative. What if a father killed a child slave and was worthy of Dany's wrath, but had a heart attack and died the next day. Is it right to kill the son, who had nothing to do with it? How many other situations can we come up with where death is not justified?

    Get creative--I'm sure you can think of plausible ones.

    Let's also not forget, Dany's dragons murdered a baby. Yes, she felt bad, and yes, she locked up her dragons, but did she ever really atone for that? It was her responsibility, and she had a warning when they killed sheep.

    Didn't it occur to her that a human could also be a victim?
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    I would agree with that list. I think Arya was at one point but lost it when she became an assassin and killed the entire family of Walder Frey instead of just Frey.

    Also Bran, Mira, and if Sansa didn't qualify at the start she might now. And I'd consider Tyrion.

    Daenerys is more 'Good' to this point than Cersei, any of the Baratheons she didn't make that way, Tiwyn, the Tyrells, the Martels, Jamie, Littlefinger, any wildling but Gilly, and pretty much any of the minor lords except Lyanna Mormont.

    I'd place Dany on the tier with Varys, Jora, Robb, Katlin, Grey Worm, and other people who do violent things but consider morality a thing to be considered. The people who you can see violently dispatching their enemies but not raiding a village of innocent people. If Dany chooses to slaughter noncombatants in King's Landing that will change.

    There is a noticeable difference between seasons that operate by 'Literature logic' and those that operate by 'TV logic'. But all things considered I think GoT has done a much better job navigating the end than other shows mentioned.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Much of the anger and frustration that is being expressed can be summed up in this way: turning characters against one another and having them behave as they have been does not feel "earned" because it is not consistent with previous seasons and completely "tanks" characters - the majority of them female - and character relationships that viewers have come to care about and invested their time and support in.

    That's why it's "shit writing".

    Certain posters here can continue to dismiss the anger and frustration as being "minimal" or "isolated", but it's real and is going to have a 'ripple effect'.
     
  5. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Easy mode? Great way to put it.

    In any event, I think she's done. She doesn't really have the support of the people and she hasn't got the power base she once had to enforce her claim, IMO. The dragons were a massive part of that power base and she's down to her last one.

    So, do we have any predictions re: the battle for Kings Landing? Cersei has Kings Landing fortified and lined with dragon-killing ballistas, the Lannister forces and The Golden Company. Dany has weary Northmen, her remaining Dothraki and Unsullied... and Drogon. Are there any other players we can expect... Second Sons, Dorne? Even with them it still seems the only advantage is Drogon and boy, he's going to be in for the battle of his life. Surely taking out the ballistas would be high on their priority list. If they're only on the ships and the city perimeter, that's one thing. But if they have them placed throughout the city I don't see how effective Drogon will actually be.

    Perhaps Bran could help? He could warg into a swarm of ravens and attack all the troops manning the ballistas, then Drogon can swoop in and take them all out while they're unmanned. Or maybe he could create a bird shield around Drogon that absorbs the ballista hits as he circles Kings Landing and fries them? :D
     
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  6. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To think about the crucial difference between Jon and Dany, consider Olly. After his parents are killed by Wildlings, Jon takes him, ultimately making him his personal steward. However, as Jon moves to rapprochement with the Wildlings in order to face the greater enemy of the White Walkers, Olly sours on him, ultimately betraying him and being one of the characters who stabs him to death - literally landing the killing blow through the heart. When Jon is resurrected, he hangs Olly for treason along with the others. However, having done that still causes Jon great emotional turmoil, because Olly was still a boy younger than Bran.

    Did we ever see such agonizing over a death sentence from Dany?

    Jon can make hard choices when he has to, but he has a strong conscience underneath. Dany, we're just not that sure about.
     
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  7. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    I think they are dismissing it as just YOU banging that same drum over and over again. We're not seeing widespread anger and frustration, just you repeating it again and again. Show isn't going as expected, but that's ok. At least wait to see where it DOES go before tearing your garments over it...

    You not liking something does not equate universally hated. Sorry you missed some of the warning signs as to what was happening because you were 'shipping characters instead of paying attention
     
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  8. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Judging by the new graphic on the armillary sphere in the title sequence for epidode 4, I think three additional dragons might turn up.
     
  9. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    I did not include Bran because he isn’t really Bran. The Three Eyed Raven destroyed Bran’s personality. Tyrion for the most part is good though I feel that the killing of Shae takes him down a couple of notches.

    I am not sure why I left Gilly out of the list. She deserves to be there. I certainly also should have included Shireen.

    There are minor characters I think are/were basically good such as Lady Walda, Hot Pie, Ros, Edd Tollett, and any Tarly that isn’t Randyll.
     
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  10. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    @Scout101 I have offered concrete examples of how the anger and frustration goes beyond just me.

    And I don't need to "wait and see how things end" because I know what the ending is based on spoiler leaks.
     
  11. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    The rumours say that when Drogon left Dany for a while ‘he’ laid eggs in Valyria. Jorah and Tyrion saw him there half way through season 5 so any offspring would now be about three years old. It is a long shot.

    Trae Crowder has been doing season 8 recaps. Here is his latest (I don’t think anyone else has posted it)

     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  12. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    wow, you're so kewl…

    So, since you already know the ending, and it isn't what you predicted, I guess you're stopping now and won't be watching (or posting) anymore? No? Then what's the point of the complaining? The writers aren't here to be impacted, and the ending is already in the can anyway, so watch it or don't, but constant updates on your emotional enjoyment are getting tiresome.
     
  13. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    It could be that the big dragon represents Dany, representing House Targaryen with her three “children”, much in the way that the other animals shown in previous seasons simply represent the different houses at war.

    I am fascinated about the return of the comet there though. Curious if there will be some cosmological event that reverses the odd and extreme seasonal changes.
     
  14. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By that logic, Romeo and Juliet is "shit writing!" Just because there's not a fairytale ending doesn't make it "shit writing." They have a tragic ending.

    Oh shit, not a ripple effect?! We're doomed! Watch out for those ripples! Actually, it's GoT, so maybe you meant "nipple effect"? I can live with that.

    Seriously though, I have no idea what you're talking about. Don't really care to be honest.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  15. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, lots of people don’t like the way the last season is going. Lots of people like it too. It’s fine if you don’t like it, but it seems to cause you visceral pain that other people like it and don’t agree it’s the objective truth how awful it is. Grow up.

    And having characters all support each other like paragons of virtue is what would be inconsistent with previous seasons.

    I think when Tyrion killed Shae it was self defense. He didn’t know she was there and when she saw him it imperiled his escape.

    I guess there’s more questions for his motives for killing his dad. If it was just revenge it knocks him down from the first tier. Especially since Tiwyn would have prevented the entire situation with the high sparrow easily. Tommen would still be King, lots fewer people would have died.
     
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  16. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    SHIELD WALL!

    Oops, wrong show. :D
     
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  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    The theory that Drogon laid eggs in Valyria assumes dragon eggs do not require fertilization. But if she did, they’d still need fire to hatch.

    Also remember, they can not feed themselves on the day of birth. Dany had to train them to feed themselves.
     
  18. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Maybe the Doom returns...for, um, Reasons. :shifty:
     
  19. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    A lot of fire down in old Valyria. IIRC, every official map I've seen of the region still shows it as a smouldering ruin and suffering from residual volcanic activity. Here's one:
    Valyria.jpg

    Plenty of places there for a dragon to lay heat-sensitive eggs.
     
  20. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The notion that someone who doesn't want power is thereby qualified is nonsense. It's true there are people who want power for fun and profit. But people who want to change things want power too. (The notion that motives can even be pure, much less that having mixed motives is a kind of evil in itself, is, sorry, childish at best.) Jon doesn't want to change anything. This is not a qualification for the throne. Cersei has it too! I can imagine Daenerys passing a law saying that no one can be compelled to marry their parents' choice. I can't imagine Jon even thinking of it. The only one apt to improve things has been shown to be Daenerys, which is exactly why the show hates her. Also, Jon is not a good choice because he is so easily manipulated, not least by Sansa. Somebody above thought the way he fell for Olly's treachery was a qualification for the throne?

    The double standard for Daenerys and all other characters is extraordinary. The notion that Davos is a good man, when he has been pursuing claimants to the throne from the beginning is extraordinary. Gendry was one, kept in reserve, then taken up. Yeah, he's pissed about Shireen but he didn't have any problems with Stannis being a crazed fanatic who murdered his own brother. They notion that Tyrion is good when he murdered his own father with premeditation for the supposed crime of knowing (by supernatural means?) that even though Sansa disappeared he had nothing to do with Joffrey's murder, and Tywin would have forced him into a life at the Wall? Professor Zoom professes to believe that lex talionis isn't justice, but Tywin was basically murdered for being mean, not as a life for a life. Crookeddy would have been appalled, were any of it sincere. When Tyrion slighted Theon for feeling bad about a life as a hostage, it was the kettle calling the pot black.