News Foundation Adaptation Series Officially Ordered by Apple

[yotsuya]

So Gaal has "magic" prescience powers and the plan depends on her - and also apparently Salvor who is probably her daughter developed from a fetus implanted into a surrogate mother? I don't think the people adapting this series have much of a clue about the basis of Psychohistory as described in the trilogy where it's humans in mass numbers that are important, not individuals. This show has now deviated so far that it is its own creature. It's not unwatchable but it's not really Foundation apart from the names of some of the characters and places.

I disagree. The original trilogy was one thing, but in the following four novels he really changed it and we are seeing those changes carried through. If you read the Foundation stories, each one really revolves around the actions of a handful of people who steer the galaxy in the right direction. Seldon is there all along with his predictions and twice Salvor Hardin steers things along. The Second Foundation is nowhere to be seen as of yet in this series and what we are seeing are the same sort of abilities the Second Foundation had. While the science of Psychohistory can only work when the people are unaware and can't predict the actions of individuals, Seldon's plan almost requires individuals to keep it on track. It requires a Second Foundation and a guide for it. In Asimov's books that guide was Daneel. I don't know if this Demerzel is that same guide. She might be. But I see that they are very much taking Asimov's writings and molding them into a feasible TV story. It is still very much Asimov's creation, though not his creation from the 1950's as it leans more to how he modified it in the 1980's.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It takes a lot of imagination to see this adaptation as remotely similar to what's described in the prequels and sequels. I'm obviously unimaginative. I don't mind it being inspired by the books and radically different as long as it makes sense eventually and doesn't bore me to tears before then. At the moment though, it's a bit turgid. It looks pretty though, I'll give it that...

 

[arch101]

I don’t care how much it’s been changed- I’m really enjoying the show and am glad it will be back next year.

 

[Marc]

With the invictus plot line was there a story where a former imperial ship was salvaged to be used against the Foundation though I’m thinking it was much later Foundation & Empire?)

 

[Brobdingnag]

With the invictus plot line was there a story where a former imperial ship was salvaged to be used against the Foundation though I’m thinking it was much later Foundation & Empire?)

No, it came soon, the second crisis. The Foundation, who were already more proficient technologically than the old empire, repaired an old cruiser that Salvor gave to the anacreonian king, however they implanted a few things in the system of the cruiser that put it under the control of the Foundation. We're already light years away from that story here.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

To make the show virtually unrecognisable as being based on the Foundation novels at all, the showrunners would only have had to change the names of the characters, systems, technologies, and the title, obviously. The only reasons they haven't is perhaps to retain the branding for marketing purposes and to get funding in the first place. It's not a terrible show but it is grindingly slow. I know they're trying to represent the diversity and inherent weaknesses in a vast Galactic empire but it's taken seven hours already to get where we are now. If the show didn't have such high production values, I would have given up on it a few episodes ago. The Expanse is a much better show IMO. It has its faults, mainly with regard to unlikely coincidences, but at least the world building isn't done at a snail's pace and it moves along nicely.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No, it came soon, the second crisis. The Foundation, who were already more proficient technologically than the old empire, repaired an old cruiser that Salvor gave to the anacreonian king, however they implanted a few things in the system of the cruiser that put it under the control of the Foundation. We're already light years away from that story here.

The Monks who controlled all the tech, simultaneously went on strike, causing a system wide black out, and refused to harm the blessed foundation, source of all that is good in the universe.
`

 

[KennyB]

The Expanse is a much better show IMO. It has its faults, mainly with regard to unlikely coincidences, but at least the world building isn't done at a snail's pace and it moves along nicely.

I am a huge Expanse fan, both of the books and the show, but they have VOCAL critics too that the show has moved too fast and combined some characters and deleted others. Chopped out whole arcs......bottom line.....you're never going to make everyone happy when you adapt a book into film. I myself am curious to see how they wrap everything up in 6 episodes.......every episode must be PACKED.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Meh, in some ways the TV version of The Expanse improves on the books for me. Such differences as exist are perfectly acceptable in an adaptation. The broad strokes and even most of the finer ones are the same. I'd like books seven through nine to be adapted but I doubt I'll ever see that happen.

 

[yotsuya]

As they have said many times in their marketing of Foundation, it has been hard to adapt. Something that is hard to adapt usually has to have some pretty substantial changes. Some end up being inspired by rather than a real adaption. I think Foundation still has that framework of the original and the prequels that is obvious to see while having a fresh take on the material that is adapting well into a series. Pacing is a personal preference. I'm enjoying both sides of the story and am curious where the Cleon side is going. After all, the Empire is going to collapse before we get very far into the series. I reread the first Foundation story to see where it ended and it ended in a horrible place. Asimov didn't provide the solution to the first crisis at all. Not until the second story. But both the first and second crisis revolve around Salvor Hardin. So merging them in this series would make sense, especially since the enemy is the same in both instances. Making the establishment of a military base, the higher tech level of the Foundation, and the derelict ship all tied to the same crisis makes sense.

I can see what they are doing form a story perspective. They are probably going to go for each season being a crisis. Though the Trevise one should still start with a crisis resolution because his story revolves around a crisis Seldon did not predict - members of the foundation being on to his plan and feeling directed and controlled. but we'll see how far it will go. Many series these days are doing well with changing cast every season or two. So that makes sense from a story and casting perspective. Create a story arc for each cast for each season. I look forward to seeing what they do. I expect some cast to continue on while others I expect are going to be this season only. I know they aren't being faithful to the exact material, and I am somewhat upset that Seldon didn't die on Trantor like in the books - something that seems to be needlessly complicating things - but they are being very faithful to the bones of Asimov's story and have created far more depth than Asimov ever did and made it a far richer world. At least at this early part is benefiting from the changes overall.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I've always been slightly annoyed when religious mummery is depicted as still existing in a supposedly advanced technological civilisation, although Asimov did have it be used as a cynically manipulative tool.

 

[Brobdingnag]

I've always been slightly annoyed when religious mummery is depicted as still existing in a supposedly advanced technological civilisation, although Asimov did have it be used as a cynically manipulative tool.

Yes, even the robot has a religion now.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yes, even the robot has a religion now.

I find it sort of quaint when artificial beings worship a being other than their actual creator. It was also the case for Winona Ryder's android character, Annalee Call, in Alien Resurrection, which might be where they got the idea here. There are probably other examples, of course. I don't think the robot devil in Futurama counts, though.

 

[wayoung]

With that space jump I thought I was watching Star Trek for a minute.

...They have digital consciousness transfer technology? And memory implantation technology? Seems like they'd just be re-uploading Cleon into a new body over and over again thenOr at least it might come up in some other way.


Hahaha Gaal is the Kwisatz Haderach!

 

[Marc]

...They have digital consciousness transfer technology? And memory implantation technology? Seems like they'd just be re-uploading Cleon into a new body over and over again thenOr at least it might come up in some other way.

I don't think it's quite that way. My impression is there's a clone that's kept upto day with their counterpart so that if Brother Dawn went spat after jumping out his window his replacement would simply be decanted and pick up where he left off with transfer rather than implant.

Maybe there isn't a real-time clone for Day and Dusk because the others would just move up the line and infant/toddler dawn is decanted and the cycle being again and the unused clone gets disintegrated.

Then we have the question. the clone is kept up to date with the current dawn so would it have the same traits or do are they more genetic (so we have the discussion of nature vs nuture ) and thus time to decant a toddler.

One of the troupes of cloning in sci-fi is that you will get issues the further the clone is from the original but that's doing a copy of a copy. They have Cleon I so he could be source of genetic material for the clones so each is a clone of him, rather than a predecessor.

In the books, the Empire had become too large, too unweildy and a few less than stellar (no pun intended) emperors and thing start come apart.

For the series the Cleons have probably brought stability but now we're seeing a wobble and that could bring the whole house of cards down.

And I'm not sure I've said what I want to say

 

[Brobdingnag]

With that space jump I thought I was watching Star Trek for a minute.

...They have digital consciousness transfer technology? And memory implantation technology? Seems like they'd just be re-uploading Cleon into a new body over and over again thenOr at least it might come up in some other way.


Hahaha Gaal is the Kwisatz Haderach!

Next episode we have Seldon's hologram saying "Use the force, Gaal, use the force!"

 

[David cgc]

Maybe there isn't a real-time clone for Day and Dusk because the others would just move up the line and infant/toddler dawn is decanted and the cycle being again and the unused clone gets disintegrated.

We see Day’s backup body first during the scene. As for why they didn’t download Cleon’s memories into his clone, I can think of a few reasons. One is philosophical, that it was supposed to be a dynasty, not a single immortal ruler. There’s also the chance that it could be a technical limitation, that there are issues with putting memories into a brain of a different age, or even that the human brain can’t have memories written at greater than 1-to-1 speed, so they have to have the spares being updated constantly to stay in sync, they can’t just do it as a burst. We saw in this very episode how the technology for saving memories can glitch with Seldon, and that didn’t even have the added complication of putting the digitized memories back into a human body.

It is odd that Dawn hasn’t considered that his duplicate might not have his distinguishing features (colorblind and a supertaster). I wonder if someone else agreed that the genetic dynasty was a mistake and decided to shake things up a little, and he wasn’t just a bug in the system. If it was intentional, there’s certainly one prime suspect.

EDIT: Oh, fun fact mentioned on the podcast that may come into play later, but the Cleons are sterile, so as to prevent the production of a conventional heir and the ensuing succession crisis. Likewise, the reason for their supply of mind-wiped concubines, so their human need for companionship doesn't lead to any kind of long-term relationship.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The backups are an obvious Chekhov's gun unless they aren't. I suspect they are. The nanomachines in the bloodstream must also have a payoff. What I don't understand is why they aren't used to detect and correct genetic defects, filter out poisons, and/or extend life enormously. They might also be used to rebuild and resurrect someone after a catastrophic accident. That they're only used to provide an identifying biometric device seems very limited. I'm not sure why you'd need a hoard of them for that. Also they might not seem very secure given that blood could be stolen but they're probably keyed to the host's DNA.

 

[Brobdingnag]

More than half of the episode and the ones that preceded are about something that is completely absent from the books and the second half is so distorted you have to mentally squint to see it even similar to the story in the book. There's no mention of an encyclopedia, even though it's a recurring theme in the books, each story starts with articles from said encyclopedia. The first story starts with Hardin as a token mayor of Terminus who becomes mayor in his full rights thanks to ejecting the board of trustees from administrative decisions. There's not even a hint of any of that in this story. Nothing about Hardin playing each of the four kingdoms against the three others. There's a great deal about religions except for the only one that was important to the story which isn't mentioned at all! Hardin is not at all like the Hardin from the story, shrewd, subtle, and sure of himself. They can't even make the characters consistent with their literary counterparts!

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yeah, the original has been almost completely eviscerated, merely leaving a skin of names and a few sinews of overall plot thread, and stuffed full of minced-up stories from wider SF. I mean that might work if there's a long-term roadmap of where they want to take things and aren't just making stuff up as they go along like on certain other shows we've seen in the past. To me, it's pretty much Foundation in name only. Fair enough. If it entertains me enough to keep watching and subscribing to Apple's TV service, it'll have done its job but it's touch and go at the moment whether I'll bother.