News Foundation Adaptation Series Officially Ordered by Apple

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JD, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wouldn’t exactly call Hardin having the theocracy he set up going full inquisition on his opponents in the Second Crisis non-violent.
     
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  2. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I might have to re-read the books, it's been more than 20 years :lol:
     
  3. coolghoul

    coolghoul Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I had a question...

    The shadowmaster comes and tells Brother Day about the revolution's reach being more extensive and says that it was more than Brother Dawn who have been "corrupted". Brother Day asks if he was corrupted and the Shadowmaster says "possibly... yes..."

    My question is basically this - was the shadowmaster trying to be noncommittal at first and then confesses that Yes, indeed Brother Day is affected for sure... ? Or was it just that Brother Day may possibly be corrupted? And that it's not known that it was.

    Cleon I is definitely affected. I think the Cleons have one option to continue - Brother Dusk wasn't affected. And they decide to replace Cleon I with Brother Dusk's body (once he's dead) and continue their merry way... (Tho' I confess I don't know if Brother Day would be allowed to continue by the Cleon "Legacy" folks (the shadowmasters, Demerzel etc) if he was corrupted for sure.)

    Also I don't quite know where Demerzel is in the whole scheme of things - is she the main spider at the center of the web? Also is she benevolent like R Daneel Olivaw is supposed to be or is she a more malevolent (let's just say more machiavellian influencer?) version...

    I thought Lou Llobell is the find of the series. She is magnetic when on screen. Harris and Pace are of course good. I'm a little disappointed in the girl playing Salvor Hardin (Leah Harvey?). But I'm willing to watch more. Cos Hardin also has to grow into his role.
     
  4. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Demerzel (or R Daneel Olivaw, if you like, but the show doesn't have the rights to use that character's name, I understand) is playing the long game through the application of the zeroth law of robotics.
    With the addition of this law, the good of humanity as a whole takes precedence over the fate of a single human. I think this is the source of eir need to adopt a religion and the anguish that having to murder any human causes em. Whether ey was the instigator of the destruction of the star bridge remains to be seen but I do think ey is in league with Seldon and whatever lies on Helicon. I suspect the Spacers are a lot more important than we've been led to believe so far. I also don't think Demerzel is the last of eir kind.
     
  5. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t think he actually killed everyone she knew. That was just a bluff
     
  6. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm not so sure but as it was Brother Day there can be some doubt, Brother Dusk on the other hand the would have been no doubt.
     
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  7. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    Killing everyone she ever knew, and everyone they ever knew, is exactly the same level of needless spite that had Cleon 13 assassinate Zephyr Halima after he'd won her over (and to make Demerzel carry it out in order to crack the whip after she picked her religion over her deference to him). The prospect that they'd all had some genetic variation does add some interesting ambiguity with Cleon 11 advocating for mercy after the attack on the Star Bridge, and wanting to rebuild it rather than just letting the Empire fall apart around him, while 12 was consistently bloodthirsty and pissed-off, and 13 seems to swing wildly between those two extremes, being open minded and adventurous in terms of politics, but also having an extreme sensitivity to personal slights.
     
  8. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Why would he bluff? You bluff when you are still acting to win or you want something from someone but don't have a 100% way to make them do it.

    He won - the conspirators have been found and already killed, he has her captured, their plan failed and now he can get revenge. What's a few hundred lives for someone who rules over trillions? We have already learned that he's a master manipulator when he dealt with that religious faction on the desert planet by using their religion against them because he studied them before he arrived ( he never intended this quarrel to be a fair fight).

    So if we extrapolate this it's not too far fetched to assume he is a vengeful character and given the ressources he has on hand it's no effort to condemn people to death, for him it's just a number and he wants to see her terrified face when he explains her punishment - sadism in perfection.
     
  9. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's certainly possible he lied out of pure sadism (because it's not as if she's in any position to verify a single word of it), but then we know he has both the power, and the petty vindictive inclination to actually do it. So he most likely did exactly as he said, for his own personal pleasure as anything else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 8:20 AM
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  10. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, executing a traitor and everyone associated with them to the n-th degree was practised in ancient China under Legalism. I can't recall the specific example from history. It does seem like something a Cleon would actually do. Killing 1500 or so people as retribution is perhaps more restrained than the punishment meted out on Anacreon and Thespis by his elder clone.
     
  11. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Probably a good thing they didn't try it while the previous Cleon was in power.
     
  12. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well the difference there is that flattening Anacreon and Thespis was a very public show of "strength" and metering out of "justice". This is something literally only Empire (and maybe his shadow operatives assuming he doesn't have their memories wiped) will EVER know about.
    Wiping out two planets has wide reaching consequences, while wiping out everyone that have ever had even secondary contact or association with a single person is done purely for Empire's personal satisfaction as the same outward effect could have been achieved just by killing her, and some selective memory wipes.