News Foundation Adaptation Series Officially Ordered by Apple

[Cyrus]

As I recall, the elements he drew on from The End of Eternity took some liberties with the events of the book (like redefining what the end goal of the time travel was), so it was questionable whether it was really meant to be in continuity or if he was just borrowing some of its ideas and using them in a new context. But then, TEoE is a book about changing history, so maybe it's just an alternate version of events.

Asimov himself admitted that the reference to EoE in one of the later Foundation books wasn't consistent with that book. There is nothing in EoE about picking a timeline with no aliens. But EoE ends with a future that leads to the Galactic Empire and no more Eternity (so no more time changes). So it was already connected to the Empire/Foundation universe.

 

[oldtrekkie]

Yeah, the science is nonsensical but I'm ignoring that aspect. The original novels were Gibbon's Decline and Fall applied to an SF setting. (The actual Roman Empire didn't cease until 476, 1453, or 1806 CE, depending on how you define it.) The show has useful comments to make about how power is exercised in the real world by countries and by individuals. I like how the Cleons aren't debauched, corrupt, moustache-twirling villains - they're just trying to keep it all together. Making a small bet on Seldon and his followers, who are evidently not terrorists and not active dissidents either, to preserve the imperial legacy is a sensible thing to do. Punishing Anacreon and Thespis without good evidence that they were culpable for the terrorist acts was ill-judged.

ETA: The planet Thespis doesn't appear in the Foundation novels. Thespis, or The Gods Grown Old is the first opera written by Gilbert and Sullivan. It's about a troupe of actors who swap roles with the Olympian gods and cause chaos. Like Earth in the Foundation Galaxy, the score of Thespis is now lost. Thespis was the legendary father of Greek drama - hence thespian is another word for actor. Anacreon was a Greek poet, who was noted for composing drinking songs and erotic poems.

Yes, I believe Asimov wrote a short story of an alternate timeline where the score of Thespis was saved for posterity unfortunately it cost him the woman he loved who didn't survive in that timeline. It's funny because it's similar to the plot of TCOTEOF in a way. I believe the story is titled "Fair Exchange?"

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yes, I believe Asimov wrote a short story of an alternate timeline where the score of Thespis was saved for posterity unfortunately it cost him the woman he loved who didn't survive in that timeline. It's funny because it's similar to the plot of TCOTEOF in a way. I believe the story is titled "Fair Exchange?"

Yet Harlan Ellison didn't sue him? Asimov's story was written in 1979, well after The City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[oldtrekkie]

Yet Harlan Ellison didn't sue him? Asimov's story was written in 1979, well after The City on the Edge of Forever.

I believe they were good friends.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I believe they were good friends.

Just as well for Asimov.

 

[Reverend]

Punishing Anacreon and Thespis without good evidence that they were culpable for the terrorist acts was ill-judged.

I don't disagree, but I do see the logic of it. The longer they wait until being seen to actually do something about the attack, the more impotent they appear. Eliminating those planets sends a clear message to the general public and buys them time to figure out what's really going on.
Of course any bold action like that could have massive and sweeping unforeseen consequences. but so can inaction. It's one of many reasons a lot of Empires just fall apart under their own weight at a certain point.

 

[Christopher]

Asimov himself admitted that the reference to EoE in one of the later Foundation books wasn't consistent with that book. There is nothing in EoE about picking a timeline with no aliens. But EoE ends with a future that leads to the Galactic Empire and no more Eternity (so no more time changes). So it was already connected to the Empire/Foundation universe.

It wasn't intended to be connected at the time. Yes, it mentions a Galactic Empire in humanity's future, but that concept was ubiquitous in the science fiction of the time, since the history of the real world had been dominated by empires for a long time and the era of decolonization was still in its early stages. So many different unconnected universes, Asimov's and others', used the idea of a Galactic Empire without any intention of them being the same Galactic Empire. That's why it was so easy to connect the Empire and Foundation series later on. They weren't originally intended to be in the same universe, but since they both used the ubiquitous concept of a Galactic Empire, it was easy enough to say it was the same empire in different eras.

There were other concepts that Asimov reused in his various different series, technologies like hyperdrive and certain types of weapon, that make it seem in retrospect like they were always meant to share a reality, but that wasn't the way he approached it at the time. A lot of SF authors would reuse ideas like that in different works, not because they intended them to share a continuity, but just because they liked the concepts and it was simpler to reuse them than to reinvent the wheel every time. Authors who work that way tend to find it relatively easy to merge their unrelated works into a single universe after the fact, like Niven with Known Space and McCaffrey with Pern and some of her other series that share a common backstory (at least loosely).

Yet Harlan Ellison didn't sue him? Asimov's story was written in 1979, well after The City on the Edge of Forever.

Ellison was too smart to sue someone over a broad similarity of premise. The cases where he sued people over "City on the Edge" pertained to the direct use of dialogue from the episode, e.g. in a Hallmark ornament with an audio chip or a novel that incorporated the events of the episode into its story.

 

[Beckerjr]

I plan to watch the entire series before passing a final judgement.
I can see how some people are tearing their hair out at the changes, though.

I've never understood some people's inability to understand different story telling mediums are just that different. Doing a simple retelling of a book to a TV show doesn't work for many reasons. Changes will and need to happen. These complaints happen every time a new series or movie comes out.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Ellison was too smart to sue someone over a broad similarity of premise. The cases where he sued people over "City on the Edge" pertained to the direct use of dialogue from the episode, e.g. in a Hallmark ornament with an audio chip or a novel that incorporated the events of the episode into its story.

Yeah, his reputation as being inordinately litigious is probably undeserved. It was well justifiable for him to sue where there was direct plagiarism of his work or it was used without credit or payment.

I don't disagree, but I do see the logic of it. The longer they wait until being seen to actually do something about the attack, the more impotent they appear. Eliminating those planets sends a clear message to the general public and buys them time to figure out what's really going on.
Of course any bold action like that could have massive and sweeping unforeseen consequences. but so can inaction. It's one of many reasons a lot of Empires just fall apart under their own weight at a certain point.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I haven't worked out yet who really was responsible. I doubt it was Demerzel as ey would be breaking the Laws of Robotics. I don't think Seldon would be so cynical as to kill millions in a distraction just to ensure the Foundation project was approved. The Second Foundation doesn't exist yet and they are much more subtle.

 

[arch101]

I've never understood some people's inability to understand different story telling mediums are just that different. Doing a simple retelling of a book to a TV show doesn't work for many reasons. Changes will and need to happen. These complaints happen every time a new series or movie comes out.

Yeah- how many times have War of the Worlds or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea been adapted? And not a single one was faithful to the source books, which are great reads but would make for questionable viewing. Foundation’s fine.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah- how many times have War of the Worlds or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea been adapted? And not a single one was faithful to the source books, which are great reads but would make for questionable viewing.

I think people misuse "faithful" in this context. They think it means "exact to the letter." A faithful adaptation is one that's true to the ideas, characters, and spirit of the story, not merely to its superficial details. You can be faithful to the letter of a work yet fail to capture its spirit; for instance, the first two Harry Potter movies are slavishly literal to the text but totally lose the books' sense of wonder and mystery, while the later films take more liberties with the surface elements but are more successful at capturing the substance.

Fidelity is not mere imitation. It means being loyal to the substance of a thing, its essence and meaning, not just its surface forms.

 

[wayoung]

On the Master and Commander: The Far Side Of The World SE DVD set there is a special feature with Peter Weir and he gives this wonderful, poetic description of how to adapt a novel.

He describes opening a book you love, flipping it over, holding it by the front and back covers and shaking it. Shaking it so hard and so long that all that wonderful prose, all that fantastic dialogue, everything except the bare bones of the story and characters falls out. Then you flip the book back over and you have the outline of your movie. From there you create your own art, carefully adding back in things you shook out as needed to enhance the movie. But it still has to be its own movie. Because you aren't writing a book, and you aren't the original author. You're you making your own movie, and you have to do what is best for the movie.

 

[Christopher]

But it still has to be its own movie. Because you aren't writing a book, and you aren't the original author. You're you making your own movie, and you have to do what is best for the movie.

Yes, exactly. The goal is not to copy. The goal is to create something new inspired by the original, something that complements it and can stand alongside it as a variation on its themes.

 

[Marc]

Yeah- how many times have War of the Worlds or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea been adapted? And not a single one was faithful to the source books, which are great reads but would make for questionable viewing. Foundation’s fine.

nuclear powered Nautlius anyone?

And I the only one who've always though of it as Har-e Seldon not Harry Seldon?

 

[oldtrekkie]

It may be a bit too soon to judge but so far so bad. I don't think they've respected the spirit, the essence of the books. A lot of things don't fit well with the book. The brutality of the rulers for instance. I mean one of the problems the empire had is that it was beginning to be too lax with its outer provinces. Here it's practically the opposite the outer provinces are so controlled that the emperor doesn't hesitate as a political chess move to destroy some of them without sufficient cause. It's practically the opposite of the book!

Also one thing, they seem to think (funnily enough) that the outer reaches are all in one place! when nothing could be further from the truth, the outer reaches are all around the galaxy and are therefore as far from one another as can be. I mean here it's almost like "I am going to the outer reaches" "so am I. You mind if I tag along?"

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

nuclear powered Nautlius anyone?

And I the only one who've always though of it as Har-e Seldon not Harry Seldon?

I did notice Gaal was pronounced both as Gail and Garl. No big deal - I just assumed people have different dialects in whatever language the empire uses.

It may be a bit too soon to judge but so far so bad. I don't think they've respected the spirit, the essence of the books. A lot of things don't fit well with the book. The brutality of the rulers for instance. I mean one of the problems the empire had is that it was beginning to be too lax with its outer provinces. Here it's practically the opposite the outer provinces are so controlled that the emperor doesn't hesitate as a political chess move to destroy some of them without sufficient cause. It's practically the opposite of the book!

Also one thing, they seem to think (funnily enough) that the outer reaches are all in one place! when nothing could be further from the truth, the outer reaches are all around the galaxy and are therefore as far from one another as can be. I mean here it's almost like "I am going to the outer reaches" "so am I. You mind if I tag along?"

Yeah, but the producers have consulted the best experts - must be the same ones that have been unemployed since January 20.

 

[Reverend]

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I haven't worked out yet who really was responsible. I doubt it was Demerzel as ey would be breaking the Laws of Robotics. I don't think Seldon would be so cynical as to kill millions in a distraction just to ensure the Foundation project was approved. The Second Foundation doesn't exist yet and they are much more subtle.

I doubt Seldon had anything to do with it, but not because he wouldn't do it; he absolutely would if he felt it necessary. Seldon is an objective pragmatist, bordering on amoral. Mathematically speaking, as great a catastrophe as that is, it pales in comparison to the fall he predicts and the long dark to come. So a few hundred million lives sacrificed then to ensure that quintillions don't live in despair and barbarism for dozens of millennia is hardly any sacrifice at all on the grand scale. It's only down at the human scale that the horror of it is abhorrent.

As for who was behind it, I guess I just assumed it was The Mule, but now I'm questioning whether her was even in the first book. The books are all rather a blur to me at the moment.

 

[oldtrekkie]

I doubt Seldon had anything to do with it, but not because he wouldn't do it; he absolutely would if he felt it necessary. Seldon is an objective pragmatist, bordering on amoral. Mathematically speaking, as great a catastrophe as that is, it pales in comparison to the fall he predicts and the long dark to come. So a few hundred million lives sacrificed then to ensure that quintillions don't live in despair and barbarism for dozens of millennia is hardly any sacrifice at all on the grand scale. It's only down at the human scale that the horror of it is abhorrent.

As for who was behind it, I guess I just assumed it was The Mule, but now I'm questioning whether her was even in the first book. The books are all rather a blur to me at the moment.

I doubt Seldon had anything to do with it, but not because he wouldn't do it; he absolutely would if he felt it necessary. Seldon is an objective pragmatist, bordering on amoral. Mathematically speaking, as great a catastrophe as that is, it pales in comparison to the fall he predicts and the long dark to come. So a few hundred million lives sacrificed then to ensure that quintillions don't live in despair and barbarism for dozens of millennia is hardly any sacrifice at all on the grand scale. It's only down at the human scale that the horror of it is abhorrent.

As for who was behind it, I guess I just assumed it was The Mule, but now I'm questioning whether her was even in the first book. The books are all rather a blur to me at the moment.

The Mule at that point wasn't born for a hundred and fifty years yet.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I get the feeling the changes in regards to the Empire's treatment of the outer territories is going for the last couple of decades of major powers leaving client states not becuase they just stopped caring but because insurgences went on so long they just gave up and write them off, especially given how people like to link those to said powers declining.

 

[oldtrekkie]

You know it really feels like they didn't take anything from the books except for a few names and a couple of anecdotes. I certainly didn't expect it to be identical to the book but I think here they went a little too far.

The terrorist attack, the giant tether, the massacre of two planets, the cloned emperors, the superstitions on Synnnax, the long trip to Terminus, the murder of Seldon by Raych (who was supposed to be dead long before that) plus a myriad of other things are not from the book... What's from the book then? Even the chronology is all wrong. I mean Salvor Hardin was long dead when the Mule was born for example so She shouldn't know about him (or is it her?)

To me it's not necessarily bad, it's just not Foundation, it's something else.