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Flip-Floping on TAS Anyone?

If I remember Star Trek 10 right (and I haven't cracked that book in decades), Blish (and his wife, presumably, though she wouldn't be credited until 2 volumes later) interpreted that whole bit of mumbo-jumbo as meaning that it would have to be a particle coming in contact with its specific counterpart from the antimatter universe to cause universal annihilation.
 
If I remember Star Trek 10 right (and I haven't cracked that book in decades), Blish (and his wife, presumably, though she wouldn't be credited until 2 volumes later) interpreted that whole bit of mumbo-jumbo as meaning that it would have to be a particle coming in contact with its specific counterpart from the antimatter universe to cause universal annihilation.

Nope, I just checked, and the adaptation, like most of the later ghostwritten ones, just quotes the episode's dialogue nearly verbatim, with none of the scientific embellishments Blish added to the earlier volumes that he actually wrote.

And the idea of it having to be a unique identical counterpart is ridiculous, because all subatomic particles of a given type are identical and interchangeable, and the particles that make up your body today are mostly not the same ones that will make it up in a month or a year.
 
because all subatomic particles of a given type are identical and interchangeable, and the particles that make up your body today are mostly not the same ones that will make it up in a month or a year.
Because THAT sounds like the kind of thinking that went into the Alternative Factor.
 
I can't say I've ever had a particularly high opinion of TAS, for many of the reasons already stated: limited animation, silly hacky kiddie premises seen in a million other cartoons (The Enterprise crew shrinks! A giant Spock! A love potion! A universe where time runs backwards and the crew becomes babies!), not especially creative aliens (A cat lady! A three-armed navigator!), too many damn sequels to TOS episodes... There just aren't a lot of points in TAS' favor.

But I'd say that the biggest problem with TAS is that its half hour runtime makes the stories WAY too simplistic. They're really mostly action/adventure or puzzle stories without any of the moral quandaries or character beats that made TOS so special. And that gets pretty old pretty fast.

So yeah, outside of a couple well-done episodes like "Yesteryear" and "Albatross," I don't think much of TAS and I only revisit it rarely.
 
I can't say I've ever had a particularly high opinion of TAS, for many of the reasons already stated: limited animation, silly hacky kiddie premises seen in a million other cartoons (The Enterprise crew shrinks! A giant Spock! A love potion! A universe where time runs backwards and the crew becomes babies!), not especially creative aliens (A cat lady! A three-armed navigator!), too many damn sequels to TOS episodes... There just aren't a lot of points in TAS' favor.

But I'd say that the biggest problem with TAS is that its half hour runtime makes the stories WAY too simplistic. They're really mostly action/adventure or puzzle stories without any of the moral quandaries or character beats that made TOS so special. And that gets pretty old pretty fast.

So yeah, outside of a couple well-done episodes like "Yesteryear" and "Albatross," I don't think much of TAS and I only revisit it rarely.

An alien with pointed ears! A love potion. A cat that turns into a lady, and back again! A giant hand grabbing the Enterprise! The landing party ages! A planet of Romans. A planet of Nazis. A planet of gangsters. Yeah, when you put it that way, there aren't a lot of points in TOS's favor either! :lol:
 
It seems like TOS did a better job of incorporating ridiculous elements without damage the credibility of the overall story. Maybe it's because they appear less frequently due to longer episodes and longer seasons, maybe because filming in live action forced them to be more grounded, maybe all kinds of reasons.

Either way I've noticed that when new viewers go into TOS they're surprised that despite the pop culture image it's not silly Lost in Space schlock, while TAS is more like what it appears to be.
 
The fact that the white rabbit really is more grounded says a lot about TAS!

(Also he was basically just a theme park animatronic or holodeck character).
 
It seems like TOS did a better job of incorporating ridiculous elements without damage the credibility of the overall story. Maybe it's because they appear less frequently due to longer episodes and longer seasons, maybe because filming in live action forced them to be more grounded, maybe all kinds of reasons.

Either way I've noticed that when new viewers go into TOS they're surprised that despite the pop culture image it's not silly Lost in Space schlock, while TAS is more like what it appears to be.

Even if that's true, whether it's silly is still a separate conversation from whether it was made for children. There's plenty of stupid stuff made for adults. The only reason people jump to that conclusion is because of the long-standing American prejudice that animation is automatically for children, an assumption you rarely find anywhere else in the world.
 
Which is the point. There's no making sense of ["The Alternative Factor"]'s inanity.

Don't mince words; what do you really think?

For years, based on the relevant article in Alan Asherman's Star Trek Compendium, I thought most of the mess was the result of Robert Brown being a last-minute substitution for John Drew Barrymore. Then, last night, on the long trolley ride from a Hollywood Bowl concert (featuring the Bruch Violin Concerto and the Dvořák 8th Symphony) back to my car in Long Beach, I saw the above-quoted post, and found a "Star Trek Fact Check" article on the episode's problems, and realized how deep they run.

. . . the long-standing American prejudice that animation is automatically for children
Which, to some extent, grew out of television stations, desperate to fill time, recycled old theatrical cartoons (which were of course originally intended for the same audiences as the features they accompanied) for time slots when adults would be too busy to watch, and to some extent grew out of an American prejudice (to some extent an outgrowth of a number of severely serious religious sects) against frivolity in general.
 
Which, to some extent, grew out of television stations, desperate to fill time, recycled old theatrical cartoons (which were of course originally intended for the same audiences as the features they accompanied) for time slots when adults would be too busy to watch, and to some extent grew out of an American prejudice (to some extent an outgrowth of a number of severely serious religious sects) against frivolity in general.

I always figured it was because Disney dominated American animation and chose to focus on family films/shows.
 
TAS is Star Trek. Or, to quote a kind of wise man's (wise guy's) signature? "Of COURSE TAS is canon!"
I liken TAS is be inspired by or loosely based on real TOS canon with the disclaimer, "Stardates, conversations, and technical details may be simplified or fictional but the mission events occurred." :wtf:
 
I always figured it was because Disney dominated American animation and chose to focus on family films/shows.
Not as much as you might think. In the first place, "family-friendly" is not the same as "specifically made for children" or "of no interest to adults" (and remember, the original Airport was released with a G rating, as was 2001 and ST:TMP). Movies specifically intended for a juvenile audience, to the point of actually being of no interest to adults (or to older kids) are an artifact (and an unintended consequence) of the Rating System. And indeed, while every live-action broadcast television iteration of ST (and arguably, TAS as well) was intended for adult audiences, they were all (at least in my extended family) always considered family-friendly, and more family-friendly than a lot of other broadcast television.

And in the second place (and note that I stopped caring about Oscars after SW was beaten out of Best Picture by a movie by Woody Allen and his girlfriend, about Woody Allen and his girlfriend, starring Woody Allen and his girlfriend as Woody Allen and his girlfriend, and a few years later, when Terms of Endearment beat The Right Stuff), Walt Disney's record for the most Oscars in history (26) still stands today, and Mary Poppins was a Best Picture nominee.
 
I liken TAS is be inspired by or loosely based on real TOS canon with the disclaimer, "Stardates, conversations, and technical details may be simplified or fictional but the mission events occurred." :wtf:

That's basically what I think about Lower Decks, and about seasons 3 & 4 of Strange New Worlds.

Although really, apparently Roddenberry himself considered TOS to be a fictionalized, occasionally inaccurate dramatization of the Enterprise's "real" missions, judging from his introduction to the TMP novelization and his advice to TMP viewers to accept that Klingons had always had ridges and TOS had just depicted them inaccurately. After all, Roddenberry got his start in TV adapting real police cases to be dramatized by Dragnet. And once I realized that, it occurred to me that TOS was a lot like Dragnet, in that both shows were framed by narration representing their main characters' official reports of the depicted events.


Not as much as you might think. In the first place, "family-friendly" is not the same as "specifically made for children" or "of no interest to adults"

I don't accept that distinction. After all, ideally, parents would watch along with their children. I mean, parents would generally need to take their kids to a movie theater (unless it was a neighborhood theater within walking distance, like the one near my childhood home before multiplexes crowded out the local theaters), and it used to be that there was generally only one TV per household so the family would watch together. So I don't accept that there's a wall between "for children" and "for adults." Children's stories have always been told with the expectation that parents would experience them too.

Also, the people telling the stories are adults, and consumers of fiction often fail to consider that the creators of fiction are people who want to enjoy their jobs. So of course the adults who tell children's stories want to tell them in a way that they themselves would enjoy. That's why so many children's stories have always been full of adult humor that goes over kids' heads, whether political humor or sexual innuendo or allusions to past pop culture from the adults' generation, or simply have intelligent writing and characterization that adults can enjoy too. (Heck, I kept watching Sesame Street well into my '30s because I enjoyed the humor that tiny tots wouldn't have gotten, and I'm currently a big fan of the Japanese Precure anime franchise aimed at young girls because the stories are just so well-written and well-made.)


(and remember, the original Airport was released with a G rating, as was 2001 and ST:TMP).

Because at the time (at least for the former two films you mention), "G" meant "General," intended for audiences of all ages. Anything that wasn't too violent or sexy or profanity-laden for general audiences -- basically anything that would've been approved for release during the Hays Code era -- was given a G rating even if it was aimed at adults. (After all, a lot of adults might not have wanted to see overt depictions of violence, sex, or profanity, so the ratings were meant to tip them off as well.) The idea that the G rating was exclusively for children's films developed later, because PG films (and later PG-13 films) were perceived as more profitable and desirable, so filmmakers started slipping in gratuitous cuss words and such to get a higher rating for films that otherwise would've been rated G, and so eventually the only G films left were the children's films.

The problem with any argument based on letter ratings is that their meanings have shifted so far over the decades that they're essentially useless for comparison purposes. What we think of as PG now would've been G in the '70s or '80s.


And indeed, while every live-action broadcast television iteration of ST (and arguably, TAS as well) was intended for adult audiences, they were all (at least in my extended family) always considered family-friendly, and more family-friendly than a lot of other broadcast television.

Well, of course, because all free, over-the-air commercial television could be watched at any time by any member of a family, so it all had to be suitable for all ages, with even the most adult-oriented content being no more than the equivalent of a PG movie. The thing is, in modern times we've gotten so used to "adult" TV being the stuff on pay cable and streaming with explicit violence, language, and sex that all commercial TV seems tame and family-friendly to us by comparison, in the same way that all Hays Code-era films seem tame in comparison to the MPAA era when more explicit content became allowed with the PG and R ratings.

And TOS was not "more family-friendly than a lot of other broadcast television." On the contrary, it pushed the envelope for skin and sexual content by the standards of its day. But the Sexual Revolution was happening around then, and the R rating was introduced around then, so what was seen as racy by 1966-9 standards had come to be seen as relatively tame by the time TOS became big in reruns in the '70s.
 
And TOS was not "more family-friendly than a lot of other broadcast television." On the contrary, it pushed the envelope for skin and sexual content by the standards of its day.
Remember, there were prime time soaps that ran concurrently with TOS Peyton Place, for one. Not to mention the daytime soaps.

The problem with any argument based on letter ratings is that their meanings have shifted so far over the decades that they're essentially useless for comparison purposes. What we think of as PG now would've been G in the '70s or '80s.
This was because when Jack Valenti originally conceived of the rating system,

(1) Pornography did not get released theatrically. At all. Ever. The Hays Code saw to that, and merely saying "Hump the Hostess" in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf led to a big fight with the censors. If you wanted to watch a movie that couldn't pass Hays, you had to rent a 16mm print (and a projector, most likely) from a disreputable shop in a disreputable neighborhood, or watch it in the back room of such a shop. Valenti never expected "X" to get a bad reputation, or to be associated specifically with sexual content.

(2) When parents took their kids to the movies, they all saw the same picture. Multiplexes didn't, as a general rule, exist under the Hays Code. And so he made no provision for movies specifically intended for unaccompanied children, because there weren't any. I was 6 years old when the Rating System went into effect. I don't remember when "PG" was called "M," but I do remember when it was called "GP." And I very clearly remember the former Fox (then NGT, then Mann, then Edwards, then torn down) South Coast Plaza Theatre building a second auditorium, with its own lobby, so that it could, for example, show Bedknobs and Broomsticks in one, and Fritz the Cat in the other.

Filmmakers who cared more about profit than about quality saw a market for movies that parents could dump their kids into, while they were n the next auditorium over, seeing something they didn't want their kids seeing, and over the decades have put out a tremendous amount of pure unadulterated dreck that was engineered for a juvenile audience, while porn producers tried to outdo each other on sheer audacity. And everybody else either toned down movies initially rated X to squeak into an R, or an R into a PG, or they added just enough profanity to turn a G movie into a PG. It was a multi-channel race to the bottom.
 
And in the second place (and note that I stopped caring about Oscars after SW was beaten out of Best Picture by a movie by Woody Allen and his girlfriend, about Woody Allen and his girlfriend, starring Woody Allen and his girlfriend as Woody Allen and his girlfriend

Annie Hall is a great movie. It's well written, well acted, smart, and funny. Star Wars is influential and enjoyable, but a lot of the acting is weak at best, as is much of the dialogue. Star Wars is, ultimately, more important in the history of film making, but I'm not sure I could argue with a straight face that it's a better movie qua movie than Annie Hall.

(1) Pornography did not get released theatrically. At all. Ever.

Well, except for all the years when pornography did, in fact, get released theatrically. A lot of filmmakers were ignoring the Hays Code by 1960. Roger Ebert's movie review column in the Chicago Sun-Times included reviews of Deep Throat, The Devil in Miss Jones, and Behind the Green Door. You can google the 1970s porn chic phenomenon, when it looked like something that was about to be taken seriously and almost welcomed into the mainstream. And that's leaving out the critically acclaimed sexually explicit art films like Nagisa Oshima's In the Realm of the Senses from 1976, the only one of the bunch I've actually seen, which is not the kind of movie a porn fan would enjoy but a film inspired by a true life story of obsession and murder, albeit one with unsimulated real sex acts on screen.
 
I also discovered TOS when I was 5 years old, but that was early 1974 during TAS's first run. I still remember the Saturday morning, probably just weeks after I discovered TOS, when my mother came out while I was playing in the backyard and told me there was a Star Trek cartoon on TV right then. So I came to think of Star Trek as a single show that was sometimes live-action on weeknights and sometimes a cartoon on Saturday mornings.
I was 7 when TAS debuted. I became a Star Trek obsessed kid a year earlier with TOS reruns. By third grade, I was devouring the Blish and Foster novelizations of TOS and TAS, and by fifth grade, I was reading the adult oriented Bantam novels. To me, TAS is just as much Star Trek as TOS is, only animated and with a complete story told in 22 minutes as opposed to the 49-50 minutes of the live action version.

As Christopher points out, TAS makes no concession to the Saturday morning child audience. There is no obligatory Filmation comedy relief mascot character, no funny animals, so song interludes, no dumbed-down vocabulary, no tacked on condescending moral of the week PSAs. It is a respectable, albeit earnest, budget animated series telling Star Trek stories in a manner that is compliant with broadcast standards and practices for mid-seventies Saturday morning television. It is not the nineties Batman:The Animated Series, but, it couldn't be, just as TOS couldn't be the 21st century Battlestar Galactica reboot.
 
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