Fleet Captain = Commodore?

[Neopeius]

We watched Whom Gods Destroy and my wife came up with a clever theory I hadn't heard bandied about in the Fleet Captain debates.

What if Fleet Captain was a real rank (three full stripes) but was phased out after Axanar (which may have heralded an end to general hostilities which roiled the Federation during it founding?). All holders of the rank were then converted to Commodores much as in WW2, Commodores became Rear Admirals in the USN.

We only have two examples of Fleet Captain in the show--Pike and Garth. Both of them haven't been on active duty in a long time. Pike is still on the rolls as a courtesy, but by that same courtesy, he might have been left with his old title. Garth, of course, has been on Elba II for a while.

What do you think?

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

It is certainly possible. The only problem I see is that Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain when Kirk took command of the Enterprise, which would have been years after Axanar. And Pike had only been inactive since his accident a few months prior to the Menagerie.

Its also possible that Fleet Captain is a rank that is of the same rate as a Captain but senior in rank, the same way that an U.S. Army First Sergeant is senior to a Master Sergeant, but they are both of the same pay grade. A Master Sergeant is laterally promoted to First Sergeant when occupying the position of First Sergeant in a company (its both a position title and a rank) and is returned to being a Master Sergeant once he finishes the assignment. I always imagined that Fleet Captain could be something similar to this arrangement.

 

[Red Ranger]

Neopeius,

Your wife is a smart cookie! It sounds plausible. I still think personally that it's not a rank, but a position of some kind, similar to how the phrase "starship captain" is a position that any one can hold without having to be a full captain, such as officers holding the ranks of lieutenant commander or commander who are in command of a ship are called "captain."

In my thinking, a fleet captain is similar to commodore in that in the earlier days of the Federation, captains with a certain level of experience would be synonymous with senior captains. These fleet captains retained the rank of full captain, but doubled as commanders of small fleets or task forces composed of several ships. The fleet captain retains command of his/her own ship while having this special status in order to preserve the chain of command in such situations.

This would be done to cut down on captains being promoted to the rank of commodore or rear admiral. It would also prevent a glut of flag officers in charge of star bases, for example, similar to how in the early days of the U.S. Navy, there was a reluctance to create an almost royal class of admirals. Perhaps in the earlier days of the Federation, there weren't as many starbases and there was a desire to make the chain of command more mobile.

Too bad it can't be esablished canonically that "fleet captain" is changed to "ccmmodore" for some reason.

Red Ranger

 

[Timo]

Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain when Kirk took command of the Enterprise

Not quite. All we know is that Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain when Kirk was there to witness the event, and the two never met after that. Could have happened when Kirk got the ship. Could have happened before (if he got the ship from somebody else besides Pike). Could have happened later.

So in theory, the Kirk/Pike promotion meeting could have happened back in 2250 or whenever Garth did his thing at Axanar, with Kirk still a raw cadet.

Anyway, I still don't believe there is such a thing as Fleet Captain. Garth was never called that - he was always called either "starship fleet Captain" or "Captain". And the one time Pike gets called anything else besides "Captain Pike" is by this Mendez chap who likes to talk in clipped sentences. He could have been speaking of getting Pike promoted to the exclusive circle of Captains of the starship fleet, just like Kirk and Spock obviously were doing when addressing Garth.

Really, there's no dramatic indication that either Pike or Garth would outrank Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Actually, Kirk is the one who calls him by that title:
"Mr. Spock received a starbase transmission, a message from former Enterprise commander Fleet Captain Pike, urgently requesting we divert here."

And it wouldn't make much sense for Kirk to speak of him in such a way if it weren't a separate Rank or Title. He never spoke of other starship captains as "Fleet Captain."

 

[Timo]

Umm, quite right.

Then again, Kirk didn't make such formal log entries about other Captains, so we don't know if, say, protocol requires calling all Starfleet starship commanders of 0-6 rank "Fleet Captain" to separate them from lesser captains.

But that's reaching. It's just that I'd like to reach, considering that "The Menagerie" is the only place where this "unreal" rank really makes its unwelcome presence known.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Perhaps Fleet Captain is usually a temporary rank for a Captain commanding a fleet of ships? Pike's rank may be special or a difference in rank structure between a field and desk officer?

 

[Neopeius]

In support of the idea of Fleet Captain being/having been a real rank is the fact that it seems logical for there to be a three full stripes sleeves rank.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Neopeius said:
In support of the idea of Fleet Captain being/having been a real rank is the fact that it seems logical for there to be a three full stripes sleeves rank.

I've always liked that idea myself.