First warp ship?

[KJbushway]

I have a question.
How was the ship built? I know out of a missile, but they put in a working matter-antimatter engine, with arm extensions(which I assume works by hydraulics).
How did they even make a Anti-matter/matter engine?
How did they accomplish this after a nuclear 3rd world war, with more than half of the population gone?

 

[Verteron]

I have a question.
How was the ship built? I know out of a missile, but they put in a working matter-antimatter engine, with arm extensions(which I assume works by hydraulics).
How did they even make a Anti-matter/matter engine?
How did they accomplish this after a nuclear 3rd world war, with more than half of the population gone?

There's a suggestion that the Phoenix (the original warp ship built by Cochrane) wasn't matter/antimatter powered, just fusion powered - a technology that may have actually been rather common before/after WW3.

Keep in mind that matter/antimatter is just a power source for warp - the Phoenix only sustained Warp 1 for a few seconds, so it's not using as much as a Galaxy class starship, so Fusion may well have been sufficient for its needs.

More concerning is how they built the warp coils themselves, these are apparently built from exotic elements not found on Earth that can bend space when power is applied to them, so goodness knows where that came from!

 

[6079SmithW]

Quick correction, "half the population gone" is not correct. There were only 600 million casualties in WW3. As far as warp, it is possible that the speed Cochrane achieved on his first flight is not even considered true warp in latter times, just really fast impulse close to c but not close enough for time dilation. That would only require fusion as mentioned above.

 

[CaptainStoner]

More concerning is how they built the warp coils themselves, these are apparently built from exotic elements not found on Earth that can bend space when power is applied to them, so goodness knows where that came from!

My first guess would be a meteor. But is there any mention in the lore of pre-WWIII space exploration?
Another possibility is that equivalent elements were somehow synthesized.
Or maybe Cochrane used red matter.

 

[sojourner]

^or less efficient materials.

In the end, there is no canon information on how the Phoenix works.

 

[Flashover]

And here we are again trying to retroactively apply 24th century technology and methods to the precursor engine.

Look at a steam engine today. Look at a steam engine from the 1800s. Not exactly the same is it?

Look at a petrol engine from 1910 and one from 2010. Not quite the same is it?

Look at the computers from the 1950s and the one you are using today? Do you get my point?


My thinking is the first attempts at warp used mundane materials and fission/fusion reactions driving small particle accelerators. The warp "coils" themselves were made out of mundane materials and very inefficient. That is if they even used a "coil" system and not some kind of "generator." Who knows?

Later on as the first explorers came back with exotic materials and tales of technical treasure... only then did we start using antimatter to juice up the plasma. Then we started tuning the reaction with crystal focus systems. Science discovered more efficient materials to build warp coils out of.


I call it "turn based technology syndrome." Many of you have no concept of how scientific progress happens. Many of you have no idea where the technology we have now comes from. You are used to applying resources and money then clicking the turn counter. That's not how it works in real life.

 

[DonIago]

While I tend to agree with your points, your final paragraph is rather condescending.

 

[sojourner]

I call it "turn based technology syndrome." Many of you have no concept of how scientific progress happens. Many of you have no idea where the technology we have now comes from. You are used to applying resources and money then clicking the turn counter. That's not how it works in real life.

Wow, way to lose friends and influence enemies! I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion in your last paragraph based on the 5 whole posts preceding yours in this thread. Especially since 4 of those posts do tend to support a reasonable view of technological advance.

Please, from now on, I would avoiding blanket statements about an audience you obviously have no information about.

 

[Flashover]

I apologize for my tone but not for the concept. A good number of people out there think you simply throw money and resources into pot, wait X period of time and get Y result every time.

That's not how it works at all.

This and linear technology progression with new tech instantly replacing the old. We used magnetic core memory long after the first solid-state IC "chips" came on the market... for example.

 

[DonIago]

You can certainly see the difference between saying "A lot of people believe," and, "Many of you believe," I hope.

 

[Flashover]

Hence my rephrasing, DonIago.

 

[Timo]

How was the ship built?

I'd argue the way they build light general aviation aircraft today: by using mundane tools and mundane materials and mundane skills plus a lot of enthusiasm. It's just that "mundane" would be defined in 2050s-2060s terms.

The ability to build an aircraft in one's garage today would be nothing short of magical for somebody from the 1880s, or even the 1950s when certain tools and techniques were prohibitively expensive and complex for the layman to use. But tools and techniques have been advancing, and one finds high technology off the shelf when mere decades prior it would have been locked in the vaults of big corporations or even national intelligence agencies.

I know out of a missile, but they put in a working matter-antimatter engine, with arm extensions(which I assume works by hydraulics).

Just to tackle a detail, the arm extensions might be more "space-proof" if they worked on magnetics (i.e. with fancy electric motors, probably of a lubrication-free variant). Hydraulic fluids and the extreme temperatures of space might not mix well.

How did they even make a Anti-matter/matter engine?

By applying 2050s tools and techniques, I guess. For all we know, matter/antimatter annihilation powerplants were fairly standard military hardware in the Trek 21st century, and Cochrane's project could make use of not-quite-top-of-the-line military surplus. Or then m/am reactors were already common in civilian life as well, and could simply be bought, even though they sound like high-risk, low-gain technologies to me and probably thus not of interest to the commercial sector.

How did they accomplish this after a nuclear 3rd world war, with more than half of the population gone?

The war might actually have helped a bit.

After WWI, there was lots and lots of surplus aviation technology just lying about, and anybody could buy or scavenge it and build record-breaking aircraft - and many did. After WWII, there was even more. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if after WWIII, every halfway decent military town (with a garrison, an airbase or an industrial plant) was littered with surplus spacecraft.

Really, when we look at ST:FC and see a rocket, we shouldn't be going "Gosh and wow, a rocket!". We should be going "Poor sod, having to use rockets to go to space - what is this, the 1980s?". In the Trek universe, far more advanced spacecraft were being retired in the 1990s already. Cochrane's little home rocket is probably best compared to a sand buggy built out of a VW Beetle chassis, while the posh neighbor is building a small jet aircraft out of a commercial kit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeS]

There were only 600 million casualties in WW3.

Wow. "Only".

 

[ares93]

There were only 600 million casualties in WW3.

Wow. "Only".

Yeah, statistically thats "only". Could have been far worse.

 

[DonIago]

Indeed. While 600 million is subjectively an appalling number of deaths, relative to the current world's population it's not even 10%.

 

[T'Girl]

I have a question.
How was the ship built? I know out of a missile

Most likely only the lower most stage of the missile was original, this was used to get the Phoenix out of the atmosphere, the first stage (if from a MM3) would have burned for only sixty seconds. From the appearance during the movie, it doesn't look like the Phoenix actual went into an orbit, more like a ballistic "pop up." If the warp engine hadn't worked, the Phoenix would have simply fallen immediately back to Earth.

Above the first stage was an entirely new space craft, Data's description during FC makes Cochrane's launch site part of modern day Malmstrom Air Force Base, while it might look like Cochrane is way out in the wilderness, he probably is just down an access road several miles from the main central base, where the Phoenix would have been actual constructed. Final assemble and check out was in the silo, I'm not sure why they choose a silo, perhaps for security reasons.

The Phoenix/missile looks like a Minuteman Three, which is what is in the silos at Malmstrom today. The Air Force's current plan is to keep them in service through the year 2030, but they might be up-graded again at that time. That what's the first stage is from, the body of the Phoenix itself replaces the upper two (really three) stages and the re-entry vehicle, it would have had to conform the MM3's dimensions to be launched from the silo.

The Phoenix wasn't really what we would call a starship, I think it was more of a proof of concept vehicle, just to show that the warp engine would work at all ... outside of a laboratory.

How did they accomplish this after a nuclear 3rd world war, with more than half of the population gone?

There were only 600 million casualties in WW3.

Well 600 million dead, the total number of casualties was probably much larger.

 

[sojourner]

Timeline wise I know it's totally anachronistic, but I thought the missile looked like a Titan.

 

[KJbushway]

Good question, does anybody know?

 

[Timo]

Timeline wise I know it's totally anachronistic, but I thought the missile looked like a Titan.

The Atlas missiles have looked more or less the same since the first one was built, despite the newer ones being completely different rockets technologically. The 2030s (?) manufacturer of the Titan series might have chosen to keep the same body (as it would fit in the same silo) while installing completely new propulsion, just as futuristic as the rest of Trek's 21st century technology.

Here's the business end of the lower stage, looking completely unlike any Titan engine so far. Also, it creates a jet that doesn't break glass in the proximal corrugated metal alcohol dispensing station, unlike any rocket today:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/firstcontacthd/firstcontacthd1762.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/firstcontacthd/firstcontacthd1776.jpg

Here's where the lower stage takes the stack. Even getting a tiny warhead this high would be quite beyond the capabilities of any of today's rockets, let alone lobbing the seemingly very heavy upper stage to this distance, basically halfway to the Moon. The entire Saturn V stack, all three stages of it, barely managed to do this to the Apollo CSM/LM that was half the size of the Phoenix:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/firstcontacthd/firstcontacthd1793.jpg

Indeed, one wonders whether this supposed "Titan V" was an ICBM at all, since the performance would seem excessive. An early IPBM, for hitting ECON Moonbases or Marsbases?

Given this sort of tech, one would assume surface-to-orbit travel was quite routine just before WWIII, and Cochrane might well have owned a personal or at least corporate spacecraft before the war... Who knows, perhaps he used his space coupe for revisiting his warp rig, which was probably left in orbit?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Rob]

The actual filming location was the Titan missile museum just south of Tucson,AZ. I don't think that the make of the missile is mentioned on-screen other than it's a former ICBM. So the Titan could be standing in for a future advanced ICBM or orbital missile. There's currently in work a high-energy propulsion system that's due to tested on the ISS within the next couple of years. I believe that it's liquid-based and would look similar to a Titan or Shuttle engine. It will supposedly make a round trip to Mars take only one-sixth the time.
As for the Phoenix; I just want to know how they landed the damned thing so fast.