Fire Department Question

[BolianAuthor]

You know, it just occurred to me today that only governments (municipal) control the fire department, and I wonder why fire response is not also privatized? I say this because there is private armed security, as well as private paramedic response/ambulatory services, so why not also fire response? I'm just kinda curious about this, if anyone knows.

 

[sidious618]

I guess there could be one but maybe nobody feels the need for any at the moment.

 

[Mr. B]

Local taxation is probably the easiest way to fund fire services... so it makes sense that local government would be the entity to provide the service. That's how volunteer fire departments are funded as well as those in larger municipalities.

 

[sidious618]

I was assuming he was talking about a private fire department in addition to the regular one.

 

[BolianAuthor]

^

Yeah... I mean, like in the same way that a company like Securitas can provide armed security at events in addition to local police, and how there are multiple private companies that operate ambulance services, why can't there be a private company that provides fire response services?

 

[Mr. B]

The other examples you cited offer services the public isn't already getting for "free." ...like additional security for a private event, not something a local PD generally offers... or non-emergency EMS transport, which private citizens have to pay for. (unless the EMS company is contracted by the city to provide general EMS response... the city I live in does this).

Why would anyone want to pay someone else more money to receive a service they are already paying for? A lack of demand would explain the non-existance of what the OP describes.

 

[T'Girl]

My uncle works for Boeing Aircraft Company, they have their own private fire departments (huge fire trucks and ambulances) at several of their big assembly plants. They have their own armed security forces too.

A few cities have contracted with private fire departments, instead of of having one run by the city, in most cases it's less expensive for the tax payers (non-union).

 

[Captain Ice]

Fire service started out private and was a real mess for a couple hundred years. It's only been governmentalized the last hundred years or so.

 

[pookha]

The other examples you cited offer services the public isn't already getting for "free." ...like additional security for a private event, not something a local PD generally offers... or non-emergency EMS transport, which private citizens have to pay for. (unless the EMS company is contracted by the city to provide general EMS response... the city I live in does this).

Why would anyone want to pay someone else more money to receive a service they are already paying for? A lack of demand would explain the non-existance of what the OP describes.

this is what i was going to mention.
those ambulance services pretty much are taxi services for people who not amublatory who have to get back and forth to dr's appts.
specialists especially dont make outside the office calls not even to nursing homes.

 

[propita]

The main private fire departments I was aware of belonged to companies.

I used to work for Hughes Aircraft (bought and sold and bought and sold since). Their El Segundo South campus had its own FD for many years, presumably available for its other nearby campuses and anything else required, likely because a Chevron refinery was across the street. I believe they also had one at the Santa Barbara campus for many years. The hills there tended to catch fire every 10 years or so, and since that was a research site, well, who’d want the whatever-was-there to burn/explode.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Fire service started out private and was a real mess for a couple hundred years. It's only been governmentalized the last hundred years or so.

True. Back when it was private, if you hadn't paid your bill, they wouldn't put out your fire. And if you contracted w/ Company A, and they happened to be busy when your fire started, Company B wouldn't help.

 

[Holdfast]

... why can't there be a private company that provides fire response services?

The competition from the public sector service destroys any potential profit margin for a putative private operator.

Think about it. To make it profitable, you'd have to offer something the public sector service does not, or do it more efficiently. There are many, many things wrong with many parts of the public sector, but the fire service actually does its job fairly well. It doesn't do it in the most efficient manner, but the marginal cost is low enough to most people and companies, that the benefit of paying for a private service is limited. Therefore profits are too low esp. given the risk/capital costs of providing the service.

If the public sector service didn't exist, there definitely would be profits to be made from a private fire response service, but given the dominant market position of the public sector, combined the in-built "advertising" spend they have, it would be very difficult for a private company to compete.

Now, in settings where the public sector service doesn't operate, there are opportunities for private provision. For instance, BAA/Ferrovial operates and pays for its own fire service within the UK airports that it owns. They're supported by the public sector service if needed, but otherwise they provide the emergency fire cover within the privately owned airport.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

You know, it just occurred to me today that only governments (municipal) control the fire department, and I wonder why fire response is not also privatized? I say this because there is private armed security, as well as private paramedic response/ambulatory services, so why not also fire response? I'm just kinda curious about this, if anyone knows.

Expense for one. It's expensive to run a department for a variety of reasons. Also, the insurance rates for private departments would be much higher than municipalities, namely because there would be no discretionary immunity protection for a private department like there is with a municipal one.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

The other examples you cited offer services the public isn't already getting for "free." ...like additional security for a private event, not something a local PD generally offers... or non-emergency EMS transport, which private citizens have to pay for. (unless the EMS company is contracted by the city to provide general EMS response... the city I live in does this).

Why would anyone want to pay someone else more money to receive a service they are already paying for? A lack of demand would explain the non-existance of what the OP describes.

this is what i was going to mention.
those ambulance services pretty much are taxi services for people who not amublatory who have to get back and forth to dr's appts.
specialists especially dont make outside the office calls not even to nursing homes.

Not true. Many private companies provide on call assistance to municipalities. They offer BLS and ALS life support.

 

[Captain Ice]

Fire service started out private and was a real mess for a couple hundred years. It's only been governmentalized the last hundred years or so.

True. Back when it was private, if you hadn't paid your bill, they wouldn't put out your fire. And if you contracted w/ Company A, and they happened to be busy when your fire started, Company B wouldn't help.

What they don't tell people is that Company A would go out and set fires in Company B's territory and vice-versa.

... why can't there be a private company that provides fire response services?

The competition from the public sector service destroys any potential profit margin for a putative private operator.

Think about it. To make it profitable, you'd have to offer something the public sector service does not, or do it more efficiently. There are many, many things wrong with many parts of the public sector, but the fire service actually does its job fairly well. It doesn't do it in the most efficient manner, but the marginal cost is low enough to most people and companies, that the benefit of paying for a private service is limited. Therefore profits are too low esp. given the risk/capital costs of providing the service.

If the public sector service didn't exist, there definitely would be profits to be made from a private fire response service, but given the dominant market position of the public sector, combined the in-built "advertising" spend they have, it would be very difficult for a private company to compete.

Now, in settings where the public sector service doesn't operate, there are opportunities for private provision. For instance, BAA/Ferrovial operates and pays for its own fire service within the UK airports that it owns. They're supported by the public sector service if needed, but otherwise they provide the emergency fire cover within the privately owned airport.

Not entirely true. We have privatized fire service here at the house. Smaller communities and unincorporated areas of Maricopa County are serviced by a for profit fire department that contracts with the communities to provide exclusive service for a negotiated yearly fee. They also have mutual aid contracts in place with the cities surrounding the areas in which they operate.

Rural Metro Fire Department

For those of you who live in Phoenix, they're also known as Southwest Ambulance

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If private fire departments existed, to whom would they be accountable?

 

[Captain Ice]

^To their stockholders.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That is not very reassuring:

True. Back when it was private, if you hadn't paid your bill, they wouldn't put out your fire. And if you contracted w/ Company A, and they happened to be busy when your fire started, Company B wouldn't help.

Fire departments should not be accountable to anyone but the people. Stockholders only care about profit. That does not help those whose houses are burning down.

 

[Captain Ice]

^It does if the contract for fire protection stipulates response times and the government regulates response times, rates, qualifications, and staffing levels.

The private company is providing the service because there aren't enough people living in these areas to justify the bond issue/taxes to build and fund a public department.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the contract for fire protection stipulates response times and the government regulates response times, rates, qualifications, and staffing levels.

Well, that's a start.