Federation should be top dog

[All Seeing Eye]

The United Federation of Planets is spread across 8000 light years (or 7000 i cant remember) and has over 150 member planets. Now thats a hell of a lot of different species and a hell of a lot of powerful economys at the federations disposal, and keep in mind that during the birth of the federation Earth, Vulcan, Benzar, Andoria and Betazed all must have had powerful economies because they were already powerful races at the time.
Now keeping this in mind the Klingons and Romulans dont have the luxury of having all these planets in their own territory or at least not ones with full on economies and theres no possible way their territory could be spread as vast as the Federation and yet the Klingons and Romulans are supposedly as powerful if not more powerful than the Federation which just doesnt seem to make sense. There is absolutely no way any other Empire/Organisation could come even close to the power of the Federation except of course The Dominion.
Even if the Klingons and Romulans subjugated several worlds they still wouldnt have enough people to man their warships because the only people they allow on their ships are their own species whereas the federation has a population spanning over 150 planets at their disposal, also the planets they subjugate will require manpower to keep it under their control further adding to their burden.

The Star Trek Universe is well and truly bodged.

 

[USS KG5]

Well it IS and it ISN'T..

A few points...

1. It is rarely if ever implied that in a total war the Federation could be defeated by the Romulans or the Klingons, the only time I recall is in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and we do not know anything about the other circumstances.

2. There are many occasions in real history where a lesser economic power with a focussed, strong military has defeated an economically more powerful one, or even a militarily more powerful one. France in 1940 had a larger military than Germany, and the Germans very nearly defeated Soviet Russia in 1941/2.

3. The Federation's reluctance to enter a conflict with another major power is unlikely to be based on the principle "in a total full-scale war we are unlikely to win". It is more likely based on the fact war would be immensely costly and unpleasant, result in millions of deaths and massive destruction, and do precisely nothing to further the Federation's aims or peaceful co-operation and exploration.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Indeed, but the way I see it is that the Federation should be that far more powerful than the Klingons etc economically and militarily that it should be considered suicide for the Klingons etc to even consider/attempt to start a conflict and yet we see in DS9 Gowron quite happily declare war on the Federation, not only this but we hear the Klingons talking amongst themselves about the victories they have gained against Federation ships.
Also you mentioned 'yesterdays enterprise', in that ep the war had supposedly gone on for years and klingons had practically won the war, that shouldnt have been the case, simply by the fact the economy of the federation is far superior to the Klingons the Federation should have won in half the time hands down.

 

[Braxton]

The Klingon and Romulan Empires existed for centuries before the formation of the Federation. There are members of the Federation that have been around for just as long (the Vulcans for instance), but we do not know how big of powers the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, etc., were prior to the formation of the Federation. Did they have several colonies? Most likely, but on our own planet we see how fast a population can grow. At the the beginning of the 20th century, our population was under 2 billion worldwide, now it is over 6 billion. If we can grow so fast in 100 years, it stands to reason that the Klingons and Romulans would be able to have a strong population growth as well.

If anything, the Federation is on par or slightly ahead of the Klingons and Romulans in terms of technology and military might. Not every race in the Federation is a Vulcan or Andor.

 

[USS KG5]

Fire said:
Indeed, but the way I see it is that the Federation should be that far more powerful than the Klingons etc economically and militarily that it should be considered suicide for the Klingons etc to even consider/attempt to start a conflict and yet we see in DS9 Gowron quite happily declare war on the Federation, not only this but we hear the Klingons talking amongst themselves about the victories they have gained against Federation ships.

Well in DS9 they imply that the Klingons are being incredibly stupid in fighting that war, they seem to also as of the start of S5 rarely destroy Fed ships, just board them, kill a few people then run off when reinforcements show up.

It is actually mentioned in one or two episodes that they are suffering pretty heavy losses - basically the Klingon attacks on the Feds in DS9 are beyond stupid, as a lot of unprovoked wars often are.

Also you mentioned 'yesterdays enterprise', in that ep the war had supposedly gone on for years and klingons had practically won the war, that shouldnt have been the case, simply by the fact the economy of the federation is far superior to the Klingons the Federation should have won in half the time hands down.

Well as I said we do not know the circumstances - for example the Klingons could have won a key tactical victory over the Feds that they never economically recovered from.

An example, if the Soviets had not relocated their industry eastwards in 1941 it would likely have all been captured and the war would have been won due to Soviet incompetence (the Germans took advantage of Stalins idiotic killing of most of his officers and the genral lethargy of the Soviet army).

Maybe in the YE timeline a Federation growing extremely rapidly, surviving through keeping an antiquated fleet in service and building few new designs was caught short, lethargic and badly organised due to years of peace.

The Klingons could then (especially with Romulan help) have launched a massive co-ordinated strike on Fed shipyards and production facilities, and invaded planets producing key materials like Dilithium or Duranium or whatever?

It is plausible that they did find a way to beat the Federation, a combination of tactical brilliance and high level idiocy has brought down many an empire!

Braxton said:
The Klingon and Romulan Empires existed for centuries before the formation of the Federation. There are members of the Federation that have been around for just as long (the Vulcans for instance), but we do not know how big of powers the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, etc., were prior to the formation of the Federation.

Sure we do - in Enterprise it is implied that the Vulcans and Andorians are both fairly hefty, and the Tellarites seem to be a power. Certainly we do not see the Klingons challenge the Vulcans.

Did they have several colonies? Most likely, but on our own planet we see how fast a population can grow. At the the beginning of the 20th century, our population was under 2 billion worldwide, now it is over 6 billion. If we can grow so fast in 100 years, it stands to reason that the Klingons and Romulans would be able to have a strong population growth as well.

True, although they would need to match this with massive economic and military expansion.

If anything, the Federation is on par or slightly ahead of the Klingons and Romulans in terms of technology and military might. Not every race in the Federation is a Vulcan or Andor.

Good point - the Feds undoubtedly have a few useless races as well as the powerful ones, but I think overall it is implied the Federation is very big and tough...

 

[KDoug]

Another thing to consider aside from manpower and resources is: How well do they fight (on average, of course)? Although Starfleet is more or less a military organization, they usually don't spend their time fighting, defending, or even patrolling. Their primary mission is to explore new worlds, find new life and new civilizations, and go where they've never been before. So, they may have inferior tactical skills compared to their enemies.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IMO, the Klingon and Romulan Empires are only slightly less powerful than the Federation but combined they overpower it quite easily. If you add in the Cardassians, the Breen, and the Tholians, the Federation is pretty much vulnerable all by itself.

To me, other empires are composed of almost as many subjugated or allied races as the Federation has member races. We only see Klingons and Romulans aboard their warships because that's probably just the way those empires run their militaries. Civilian Klingon and Romulan vessels may have crewmembers comprised of many different races. Other races within those empires may not have the same social or political standing as the dominant races do, but they may be responsible for contributing to their overall economies, construction of vessels, etc.

 

[xortex]

There's also the equivalent of the maquii on both sides. Also it it not known which side the major factions will join in an all out war. The Klingons must have their own equivelant of the Federation but of nasty races like the Orians and so forth.

 

[bismarck_1892]

Fire said:
The United Federation of Planets is spread across 8000 light years (or 7000 i cant remember) and has over 150 member planets. Now thats a hell of a lot of different species and a hell of a lot of powerful economys at the federations disposal, and keep in mind that during the birth of the federation Earth, Vulcan, Benzar, Andoria and Betazed all must have had powerful economies because they were already powerful races at the time.
Now keeping this in mind the Klingons and Romulans dont have the luxury of having all these planets in their own territory or at least not ones with full on economies and theres no possible way their territory could be spread as vast as the Federation and yet the Klingons and Romulans are supposedly as powerful if not more powerful than the Federation which just doesnt seem to make sense. There is absolutely no way any other Empire/Organisation could come even close to the power of the Federation except of course The Dominion.
Even if the Klingons and Romulans subjugated several worlds they still wouldnt have enough people to man their warships because the only people they allow on their ships are their own species whereas the federation has a population spanning over 150 planets at their disposal, also the planets they subjugate will require manpower to keep it under their control further adding to their burden.

The Star Trek Universe is well and truly bodged.

Yeah, it doesn't make sence. But, its a TV show. Why complicate matters?

 

[-Brett-]

You're making a whole bunch of assumptions that aren't in evidence.

 

[JD]

I think part of the problem, is that the Romulans and Klingons are much more focused on war, than the UFP is. The UFP is a mostly peaceful orginization who only fight when they have no choice, while at the same time those other races seem to focus most of their time and energy on fighting and conqureing other worlds.

 

[zenophite]

The main problem I think you're having is reconciling the reality of what these planet wide governments might actually be like versus how they are depicted by writers who generally use these things as a framework or backdrop into which they create stories.

The UFP has always been a somewhat left leaning/socialistic body that blends an idealized vision of the USA and United nations and exptrapolates on that theme in terms of alien cultures and so forth.

The truth is that not a whole lot of thought really went into figuring out exactly how the federation would actually work because that was not the focus of the tv shows.Mostly it is just a hand-wavy quasi-utopia that seem to address the human survival concerns of the cold war era.

For example, take the 'money' question - is there money in the UFP or not? Kirk says there isn't in ST4 yet there are other references that indicate there is something like money floating around.

 

[Sisu]

With apologies to the Americans, who won't get this... but the Brits and the Aussies will.

Top Dog

 

[All Seeing Eye]

zenophite said:
For example, take the 'money' question - is there money in the UFP or not? Kirk says there isn't in ST4 yet there are other references that indicate there is something like money floating around.

Picard in First Contact also confirms there is no money in the Federation because its not needed, no doubt replicator rations are handed out to the masses and they can get what they want with these rations but that doesn't mean there isnt any money, we're well aware that there is gold pressed latinum out there and this is probably used to do business outside of the Federation or even inside the Federation between people who dont want to trade in replicators rations. The basics of it is simply that people in the Federation dont get paid wages they get gifted with replicator rations.

 

[MadBaggins]

Re: Methods of control

Do you think the Federation has ever nuked anyone?

 

[KDoug]

Re: Methods of control

Of course not! Now, they might have matter-antimatter-bombed somebody...

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Methods of control

MadBaggins said:
Do you think the Federation has ever nuked anyone?

Romulans, presumably.

And I'd say the Dominion should be top dog. They are like the Federation, in being an expansionistic, multicultural entity that treats its own citizenry well enough not to cause internal unrest.

If you're part of the Dominion and don't make trouble, you're left to your own devices. And the Dominion offers defense without much in the way of cost - rather than drafting soldiers from among the worlds of the Dominion, they clone their own cannon fodder! Are the Dominion worlds even taxed? The cost of ketracel-white and actual cloning can't be that expensive. Replacing destroyed warships is probably the biggest expense. Being part of the Dominion is a sweet deal! :thumbsup:

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Methods of control

^ Unless of course you challenge the Dominion or begin to question the decisions of the Founders. In that case they send in the Jem'Hadar or infect your planet with the Quickening from "The Quickening".

 

[DarthTom]

Fire said:
The basics of it is simply that people in the Federation dont get paid wages they get gifted with replicator rations.

Why then in Encounter at Far Point does Beverly Crusher say she has 'federation credit chips,' to buy a scarf? Which of course is forgotten later.

 

[Anwar]

Don't they mention Federation Credits in DS9 as well?

I think in the Federation you use Replicator Rations, but outside the Federation you can have the rations converted to Credits for usage there.