Federation losing the Dominion War

[What's his face]

Hi guys

I remember reading somewhere that originally, the writers of DS9 wanted the Federation to lose the Dominion War, but executives shot this idea down. Is this at all true?

Second, how would the story have unfolded if this were to happen, regardless of whether this had any chance of happening? Would the series end on an uncertain note, with the Defiant and the remains of Starfleet retreating from a lost Battle of Earth to fight another day, or would they finally re-take the Earth in the final episode?

Personally, I kind of wish they had done this. Although the resolution we ended up with was incredible, it would be very original and unorthodox to actually have the Federation fall.

What are your thoughts?

 

[msbae]

No.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No.

Well, that was a thoughtful response.

 

[Navaros]

I've heard that they did indeed consider having the Dominion win, Not sure if they actually were going to go ahead with that idea and then had it shot down by higher ups or not, though. I got the impression they simply made the wrong decision about that all on their own before the higher ups had any reason to step in about that. Although it's likely the higher ups would have stepped in to shut down that idea if they did try to go forward with it.

The Dominion definitely should have won. Especially since the rushed, hackneyed way that they 'lost' in WYLB makes no sense and is not at all consistent with the rest of the series.

How I would have liked to see it done was to show the Sisko die at the hands of the Dominion after a valiant battle. Then flash forward to see the full Dominion forces taking control of the AQ. The last scene should be flash-forwarded to a few generations into the future and feature one of the Sisko's descendants. Showing him and his followers had the potential to forge an alliance that would finally take back the AQ, but only after winning epic battles the likes of which the AQ has never seen before.

In other words, they should have brought the scenario that Sisko articulated in "Statistical Probabilities" full-circle and have it actually happen.

 

[nx1701g]

I remember this plan. It was rumored Voyager would return to the Alpha Quadrant and lead a resistance force too. Glad neither happened.

 

[Computer]

heres an episode id have liked to seen, would have made a perfect send off for a movie or 2 for DS9

 

[Red Ranger]

Actually, it's not a bad idea, and would have qualified DSN as the darkest of all ST series. But considering how this "fall of the Federation" story arc was handled so badly by the other Rodenberry show, Andromeda, it might have failed, too, as it's radically different from the more optimistic vision of the rest of ST. Or maybe a multi-part story arc showing a near future where the Dominion wins, and our heroes have found out that they must correct the timeline -- you know, a reset storyline! But perhaps one that actually has some repercussions when the timeline is restored to what they usually call the maximum line of probability. -- RR

 

[Sisko4Life]

If the Federation lost the Dominion War, Paramount wouldnt be able to produce anymore TNG films, and that would screw up the ending for Voyager as well. There was too much going on to have such a radical ending to a series. Also, I believe Star Trek: Insurrection came before the end of the series and I can remember two distinct mentions of the Dominion. Picard mentioned that they needed the new allies because of their losses to the Borg and Dominion (you can infer that Federation had overcome or was close to overcoming the Dominion threat from the nature of the mission and the tone of Picard's voice). R'aufo also mentioned that the Borg and Dominion have challenged, not defeated the Federation in the last 24 months.

 

[Navaros]

^

IMO that shouldn't really matter though. The TNG films all-but ignored, and in some cases pro-actively contradicted, DS9's canon anyways. So what's the difference if the Dominion wins in the DS9 series. The films woulda just ignored/contradicted it same as usual. Voyager series could have ignored it/contradicted it just the same.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Voyager returning home to a conquered Earth with Weyoun answering the hail... then what?... a "To Be Continued?"

 

[Navaros]

That woulda been a lot more interesting of an ending than the one Voyager got IMO. They wouldn't necessarily have to continue it though...why would they? Just because it's a sad ending and it must continue on til the ending becomes happy?

But if that's too much, they coulda just ignored the content of DS9. The dumbing-down of the DS9 intellectual property for the sake of having it be 'agreeable' with other entities that have very little to do with it in the first place and which ignore/contradict it all the time anyways is a tragedy IMO. Some posters here have also said that this is also why DS9's Season 1 wasn't too good (except for a few episodes), because if they started doing good things with DS9 in DS9 Season 1 it woulda stepped on TNG's toes.

 

[Jono]

^

IMO that shouldn't really matter though. The TNG films all-but ignored, and in some cases pro-actively contradicted, DS9's canon anyways. So what's the difference if the Dominion wins in the DS9 series. The films woulda just ignored/contradicted it same as usual. Voyager series could have ignored it/contradicted it just the same.

Really? What did they contradict?

I don't think having the Dominion win in the end would have been more interesting, it would have just been limiting.

 

[Lindley]

Really? What did they contradict?

You mean aside from putting Worf back in a Starfleet uniform and on the Enterprise without explanation? He could have been in his ambassador's garb just as easily at Riker's wedding, and only taken up Starfleet dress when he decided to help them with the mission.

The books have done a fairly good job of charting a course for Worf which leads believably back from Quo'nos to Starfleet, but it's still a shame that was necessary.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Good lord. What is with this endless obsession with the Federation falling? It completely flies in the face of why Star Trek is so successful to begin with. If the writers did consider destroying the Federation, than Berman / Paramount were right to tell them "no, way!"

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Good lord. What is with this endless obsession with the Federation falling? It completely flies in the face of why Star Trek is so successful to begin with. If the writers did consider destroying the Federation, than Berman / Paramount were right to tell them "no, way!"

I don't want to see the Federation fail completely...but I have a personal theory about this because I admit I'm one of those that sometimes wants to see the Federation taken down a few pegs. I've been working on some fanfic ideas lately and they are WAY different in tone than what I used to write when I was younger--and one of the things I'm looking forward to doing isn't taking down the Federation, per se, but exposing some of the Federation's historical dirty laundry. I know that sounds bad, and to some, antithetical to everything Trek was originally about. Maybe it is, but I think the variation in the approaches of the different series allows for that view.

I think in my case, it's growing cynicism about human nature, how the world works, the direction our society's progression is going. When I was little and I first became a Star Trek fan, I really did believe that things could come out "happily ever after." Things like TNG were very appealing to me for that reason. The older I've gotten, though, the less and less I still believe that and the more I find myself getting suspicious of utopian claims. I tend to pick things apart a lot more than I used to. And so I think it becomes harder and harder for me to suspend disbelief to accept a utopian vision of the world.

In other words, Garak would be proud of me.

 

[Jono]

Really? What did they contradict?

You mean aside from putting Worf back in a Starfleet uniform and on the Enterprise without explanation? He could have been in his ambassador's garb just as easily at Riker's wedding, and only taken up Starfleet dress when he decided to help them with the mission.

The books have done a fairly good job of charting a course for Worf which leads believably back from Quo'nos to Starfleet, but it's still a shame that was necessary.

It doesn't contradict the ending of DS9, it just states that by 2379 Worf was no longer an ambassador.

 

[nx1701g]

^ And there are no guarantees that Ambassadorial appointments are permanent things. Leadership of governments change and sometimes relationships change as a result of it. Maybe Martok was for Worf being there, but the High Council was against it and made him leave. All kinds of possibilities.

(If you read the novels they have a pretty good reason for Ambassador Worf leaving).

 

[Lindley]

It doesn't contradict the ending of DS9, it just states that by 2379 Worf was no longer an ambassador.

So instead of an outright contradiction, they throw away a perfectly good character development in favor of more of the same. Well, that's much better.

 

[Red Ranger]

Slightly off-topic, but one of the things I liked about how they ended DSN is that they actually had several characters move on from their lives on the station, a bit more like real life. You had Odo, O'Brien, and Worf all take new positions off the station, while Kira takes over for Sisko, and Nog then fills O'Brien's old spot. -- RR

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I remember this plan. It was rumored Voyager would return to the Alpha Quadrant and lead a resistance force too. Glad neither happened.

Yes I heard this as well, and thank goodness it didn't happen. Of course Voyager is "Indestructible" in nature.