• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Ezri was wrong!!

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Tacking into the Wind is a great ep and nearly flawless except...

Exri comments about the corruption of the past Klingon leaders... except that there haven't been. Gowron is corrupt, but before him, was Kmpec, and he served as leader for a LONG time lo0nger than anyone in history according to Picard. Of course, she's Dax, so she might remember other leaders, but Azet-bur changed her tune for the better after that peace conference, and Gorkon was a good leader... so WTF?
 
I could be wrong but I think she was just talking about the higher-ups in the Klingon Empire in general, not just the emperors. There were many instances that involved the Duras family and the Romulans to try to take over. I think there was another one where Romulans program Geordi to murder the Emperor also.
 
Last edited:
Kmpec seemed to be an good man. But all his business about keeping the status quo and preventing a conflict with the house of Duras wasn't exactly "Klingon Way". In the end he only postponed the conflict and luckily Worf had weakened the Duras family enough so that they didn't win.

He's probably not part of the corruption Ezri denounced, but he was part of the problem.
 
Kmpec was a compromiser and acted in duplicity, as when allowing Worf's discommodation. He was not the bold heroic leader who should have slain Duras where he stood, in line with Klingon values.

Gowron was a good man but also made decisions based on political power and not the good of the empire, as when he manipulated General Martok into fighting a string of losing battles to weaken his position and downgrade him as a political rival.

These are not in line with Klingon leadership qualities of courage, honor and direct action. They dishonor their offices with maneuvering and intrigue, and they put the empire at risk for personal gain.

Compared with Worf, or Kurn, who earned loyalty among their men.
 
Kmpec was in no way a good leader. A true Klingon would not have allowed the Duras family anywhere near the council. The Empire needed someone like Worf to shake them out of their complacency.
 
Disagree.

Kempec---> Gowron+ High Council had become corrupt

Kempec was much like today's polticians, too willing to compromise so not to rock the boat and retain power.

Gowron wanted the glory for himself, didn't matter who he hurt.

If you could talk to Dax today, I would guarantee that General Martok had restored honor the empire.
 
Hermiod said:
Kmpec was in no way a good leader. A true Klingon would not have allowed the Duras family anywhere near the council. The Empire needed someone like Worf to shake them out of their complacency.
Click to expand...

By taking care of both Gowron and Duras! I think Ezri was spot on. The High Council was more Romulan than anything. There were still loyal, honorable Klingons but very few at higher levels.

Pity Worf ended up back on the Enterprise. He would have been a better asset for the Empire.
 
This idea that the Klingons have gradually descended into dishonor may be a specious one. It's just as likely that the legends of Kahless are ideals to which only a man like Worf, raised away from Klingons and exposed only to the best angels of their collective nature via inspirational, mythological material, could possible adhere. From what we've seen, most Klingons are as honorable as contemporary Christians are devout.

I wonder if we saw Worf back aboard Enterprise during Nemesis because Martok is already dead—killed by a cadre of nobles who couldn't stomach the idea of kowtowing to a commoner from the Ketha Lowlands and very much interested in maintaining the status quo. Kor didn't call the Federation citizenry a "democratic rabble" for nothing.
 
Azet-bur changed her tune for the better after that peace conference, and Gorkon was a good leader...
Click to expand...

We know little about Azetbur and Gorkon other than they were visionary enough to realize the destruction of Praxis had left the Empire vulnerable, and (to their credit) canny enough to talk peace as a result. Azetbur clearly considered (and ultimately rejected) the military option she was offered, as any prudent leader would.

As for Kmpec, he was a typical Klingon, in that he spoke of honor but engaged in skullduggery when it suited his purposes. Gowron, it would seem, was gradually corrupted by the position, until he acted more in his own interests than that of the Empire.

While I'd venture to guess that most of us like Martok, and consider him a fairly honorable man, it's not inconceivable that a decade (or even a year) or two of corrupting power might well leave him nearly as self-serving as his predecessor.

Then, again, he's not nearly the egotist Gowron was.
 
I know many people don't like the books, but there is a novel duology written by J.G. Hertzler himself that may interest some people. It's called the Left Hand of Destiny.
 
The real problem is that there is very little onscreen back story about the Klingon Chancellors of old. She could be wrong or she could be right, all depending on the viewer's interpretation. Plus throw in the change that Klingons underwent from the TOS era to the TNG era and it get's even more muddled.

As always I have to preface this with the usual not canon blah blah blah, but the novel The Art of the Impossible delves a lot more into Klingon Chancellors from TOS into TNG and what type of leaders they were.

But I, for one, have always agreed with Ezri's statement. Honor is thrown to wind at the highest levels if there is a threat to the person's political future. The conduct we observed from most members of the High Council was not inspiring.
 
nx1701g said:
I know many people don't like the books, but there is a novel duology written by J.G. Hertzler himself that may interest some people. It's called the Left Hand of Destiny.
Click to expand...

Really enjoyed those books. Enjoyed the characterisation of Martok, Alexander, Drex. The end of chapter 19 had the hairs on the back of my neck standing, fantastic moment.
 
The idea of "honorable" yet vicious and bloodthirsty conquerors was always a problematic one. Early on in Next Gen, and I wonder how many remember this, the Klingons seemed to be a sort of humbled people, sometimes literally defeated. Q comments on the Feds having conquered the Klingons I think, Wesley talks about the Klingons joining the Federation, and in one episode, the backdrop behind a Klingon captain on the viewscreen showed the Federation and Klingon symbols side by side.

I could accept a Klingon race that was forced to make peace and give up conquest. (That's what they implied also in Undiscovered Country, though Next Gen had already unmade that future for them.) It's hard for me to accept a strong Klingon Empire who are supposed to be just like the old Klingons except that they signed a peace treaty. I have never heard anyone mention all the conquered worlds that they apparently got to hang onto, where they slaughtered the leaders and a large chunk of the population to take power, I'm sure. All that's forgiven. It's not the end of the Cold War, it's detente. And it's not detente with Brezhnev, it's detente with Stalin. Yet we go on about how great and honorable Klingons are.

Ezri was right. People get caught up in the romance of the warrior thing, and that's all interesting, but they have to be hypocrites. I'm going farther than Ezri did; she just pointed out a pattern of political corruption. I say it's hard to avoid that with their kind of culture.
 
That's something I also felt was lacking--some sort of confirmation of whether or not the still conquered, and as to the worlds that they still hold, whether or not they were forced to make some sort of reparations or at LEAST issue an apology the way I think Cardassia was made to apologize for the Occupation.
 
Probably not. In "Mind's Eye", we see (or at least discuss) a Klingon world in the throes of a rebellion, and there's absolutely no sense of our heroes or their Federation trying to affect the events one way or the other. How Klingons treat their subjects is an internal matter for them, apparently. They may have groveled when their current interests conflicted with the UFP ones, but they're unlikely to ever have given up what they already had conquered, or apologized for what for them was doing the right thing.

Ezri's statement need not be true from the human point of view, as Ezri would be discussing Klingon honor rather than human honor. But we have to consider the possibility that it's not true from the Klingon point of view, either - and that Ezri very well knows this. She's out with an agenda here: she wants Worf to take charge. She has Worf by the short and sensitives already, but to be doubly sure, she must also appeal to Worf's somewhat misguided ideas about Klingon conduct. That will sway Worf enough to make him risk his life in a duel, the aftermath of which will leave both Worf and the Klingon Empire more to Ezri's liking. Or to Dax' liking, to be more accurate.

That's Dax for ya. Ezri/Jadzia would have a personal agenda with promoting Worf, while (Curzon) Dax would have a broader political agenda - and the result is classic Trill synergy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Maybe Ezri knows something that we don't.


YYZ said:
Tacking into the Wind is a great ep and nearly flawless except...

Exri comments about the corruption of the past Klingon leaders... except that there haven't been. Gowron is corrupt, but before him, was Kmpec, and he served as leader for a LONG time lo0nger than anyone in history according to Picard. Of course, she's Dax, so she might remember other leaders, but Azet-bur changed her tune for the better after that peace conference, and Gorkon was a good leader... so WTF?
Click to expand...
 
JM1776 said:
I wonder if we saw Worf back aboard Enterprise during Nemesis because Martok is already dead—killed by a cadre of nobles who couldn't stomach the idea of kowtowing to a commoner from the Ketha Lowlands and very much interested in maintaining the status quo. Kor didn't call the Federation citizenry a "democratic rabble" for nothing.
Click to expand...
It's entirely possible - but I wonder more if the Fed higher-ups simply didn't sign off on Worf's appointment, which seemed to have been cooked up privately between Ross, Sisko and Martok.

Certainly, from Martok's point of view, Worf is an ideal appointment - but the post is Federation Ambassador to the Klingons, not Klingon Ambassador to the Feds. If you were the Federation President, would you be quite comfortable with appointing an Ambassador to the Klingons who is not only a Klingon, and not only even a member of the Klingon ruler's family, but the very Klingon who put the Klingon ruler on the throne?! Really, if there was a Fed/Klingon dispute - and even with a relatively Fed-friendly Chancellor, they would happen - you need an Ambassador whose loyalty is indisputably to you...
 
YYZ said:
Tacking into the Wind is a great ep and nearly flawless except...

Gowron is corrupt, but before him, was Kmpec, and he served as leader for a LONG time lo0nger than anyone in history according to Picard.
Click to expand...

K'mpec wasn't corrupt - unless you count conspiring against an innocent dead man in order to protect your own image.
 
SoM said:
Really, if there was a Fed/Klingon dispute—and even with a relatively Fed-friendly Chancellor, they would happen—you need an Ambassador whose loyalty is indisputably to you...
Click to expand...

Excellent observation.

On the other hand, Worf's appointment is as Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire. His personal honor is such that he will perform that duty to the best of his abilities, setting the UFP's interests above those of the Empire because that is the task he has been assigned. That's simply a pillar of his personality, in my opinion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top